Most Popular Topics

**organic farmer** · 08-14-2016, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by cnil1

I live in Phoenix and am considering solar

Welcome.

So you think that by dropping net-metering that will make solar power less attractive. I am not sure that is the case.

I am not sure that I understand exactly what a "demand charge" is.

**HX_Guy** · 08-14-2016, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by cnil1

I live in Phoenix and am considering solar. However, I understand that APS has a rate proposal pending that could make solar very unattractive. The rate proposal has two bad features:

1. No more net metering
2. New rate plans with demand charges

I have learned from my research that existing solar customers (and those who are up and running by July 2017) will be grandfathered and able to keep net metering.

HOWEVER....

I have not been able to find a definitive answer as to whether or not existing solar customers will be able to keep their existing rate plans (likely et-2 for me) or will they be forced onto one of the new rate plans with demand charges. Does anyone know the answer to this question, and if so, could you please provide a link to official documentation? It's a make or break issue for me.

Yes, if you have solar prior to the July 1st deadline (or an application in process), the rate PLAN will be grandfathered in for 20 years. I highlight plan because the rates on the plans are actually going up but the plans themselves (Standard, TOU 12-7) are in fact remaining. As for the rates, it really only affects you if you have a "peak shaver" system. If you have a full offset, then you'll only be minimally affected by the service charge going up a bit...I think a dollar or two per month.

There is information online on APS' site at www.azenergyfuture.com. It takes some digging around but here are the new Rate Schedule: http://www.azenergyfuture.com/getmed...Schedules.pdf/

As you can see, the current plans will now be called "Legacy" plans and will be frozen. The current ET-2 will be "ET-2 Legacy Time-of-Use - Legacy On-Site Distributed Generation (12 p.m. to 7 p.m.)"

BTW, net metering is not going away...but it might as well be. It's being reduced by 76%...meaning if you overproduce 1,000kWh and feed it back to the grid, you only get 240kWh credits.

**cnil1** · 08-15-2016, 09:57 AM

Thanks HX_Guy, very helpful information. I will look through it in detail soon. As per your comment on net metering... that's for non-grandfathered people, right?

Also, do you know if I can install a small system now to lock the grandfathered rate plan and net metering terms and then add on to it in later years, if desired, and keep the grandfathered terms?

Finally, if these changes go through, I cannot see any possible way that small residential solar companies will stay in business. Do you? Because of this, I may have to include in my cost analysis the assumption that my installer is not going to be around to provide any warranty service.

**Sunking** · 08-15-2016, 11:54 AM

About time POCO started fighting and pushing back.

**sunnyguy** · 08-15-2016, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by cnil1

Also, do you know if I can install a small system now to lock the grandfathered rate plan and net metering terms and then add on to it in later years, if desired, and keep the grandfathered terms?

No, in fact it says you can't add on or install additional generating systems without voiding the grandfather status.

**DanKegel** · 08-15-2016, 04:24 PM

If you want to read further -

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/heat...e-deci/424454/ looks interesting and on topic.

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/naru...-solar/423586/ has some background.

Nothing wrong with gradually decreasing subsidies as solar costs come down... but the old-school fossil folks consider home solar a threat, and would like to cut subsidies off ASAP and/or impose extra charges on solar users. To the extent they manage to cut subsidies too rapidly, it'll hurt solar energy's expansion.

**azdave** · 08-15-2016, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by organic farmer

I am not sure that I understand exactly what a "demand charge" is.

A fee applied to your monthly bill based upon the highest peak usage that occurs in any preset time period. Usually 15 minutes to 1/2 hour. With a demand fee, that last thing you want to do is have heavy electric loads all on at the same time causing a high peak demand. The POCO wants to reward you with lower bills when you learn to keep your usage more balanced. You'll soon see more residential load controllers that can talk to your appliances and instruct them when to power down or scale back use to smooth out your peak demands.

**J.P.M.** · 08-15-2016, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by DanKegel

If you want to read further -

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/heat...e-deci/424454/ looks interesting and on topic.

http://www.utilitydive.com/news/naru...-solar/423586/ has some background.

Nothing wrong with gradually decreasing subsidies as solar costs come down... but the old-school fossil folks consider home solar a threat, and would like to cut subsidies off ASAP and/or impose extra charges on solar users. To the extent they manage to cut subsidies too rapidly, it'll hurt solar energy's expansion.

There's also the idea that the price of residential solar will come down when the subsidies disappear. The subsidies are for the benefit of mfgs. more than consumers and effectively inflate prices. Subsidies allow subpar vendors to stay in business by allowing higher selling prices that consumers swallow because they're told a save story of 30%. It's not much more than a mark it up to mark it down scam.

If solar cannot compete with other energy sources without subsidies, and if one believes in free market capitalism, then it ought not to be an option. To cry the blues about fed. tax breaks for oil/coal/nukes as being unfair seems valid to me, but what would happen if all subsidies for all energy sources were to end ? What would happen to the price of PV ? What would happen to a typical residential electric bill ?

I have no way to prove any of this, but IMO only, and as a general believer in free market capitalism, if U.S. fed. solar tax credits had never existed, solar PV quality would have been higher sooner - the better mousetrap theory. Lacking a means to an (easier) buck the tax credit enables, a lot of scam artists would never have got into the business, pre tax credit prices would be lower than now - maybe not 30 %, but maybe close to it - and the implementation of PV as part of the U.S. energy mix would now be on a sounder footing as a matter of federal energy policy. Maybe not a lot more quantity, but perhaps a lot more feasible, sustainable, cost effective and practical. Real competition would improve quality, costs would come down faster, and there would probably be fewer and smaller arrays on roofs, but fewer people would have been scammed.

As it is now, PV is a slave to the U.S. tax code. Take the credit away and solar will die, just like it did in the '70's when, BTW, solar scams, a lot of absolutely crap equipment and tax fraud abounded.

**HX_Guy** · 08-16-2016, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by sunnyguy

No, in fact it says you can't add on or install additional generating systems without voiding the grandfather status.

Do you have additional info on this? Someone actually told me today the exact opposite, and they said the info came from an APS rep...who said you could expand the system as it did not need a new reservation number, which means it doesn't void the grandfathering. Would love to read something from APS that was concrete.

EDIT: Nevermind, found it. The rate case proposal specifically says the following:

5. The system may not be expanded during the grandfathering period, and no new distributed generation system may be added to the grandfathered property.

**sunnyguy** · 08-16-2016, 06:14 PM

Yep. I'm watching for falling panel prices and considering going to 100% offset.

**cnil1** · 08-17-2016, 09:58 AM

Very useful information for me in this thread. Thanks again.

Does anyone follow the political landscape with this proposal? If so,

1. Are these changes considered a "done deal" because APS got "their guys" elected last election?
2. If so, when is this decision coming down?

If this matter will be decided soon, and leave enough time to decide on solar afterward, I'll probably defer my decision until I see what happens.

**DanKegel** · 08-17-2016, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

if U.S. fed. solar tax credits had never existed, solar PV quality would have been higher sooner - the better mousetrap theory.

Wishful thinking.

**NYHeel** · 08-17-2016, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by J.P.M.

There's also the idea that the price of residential solar will come down when the subsidies disappear. The subsidies are for the benefit of mfgs. more than consumers and effectively inflate prices. Subsidies allow subpar vendors to stay in business by allowing higher selling prices that consumers swallow because they're told a save story of 30%. It's not much more than a mark it up to mark it down scam.

If solar cannot compete with other energy sources without subsidies, and if one believes in free market capitalism, then it ought not to be an option. To cry the blues about fed. tax breaks for oil/coal/nukes as being unfair seems valid to me, but what would happen if all subsidies for all energy sources were to end ? What would happen to the price of PV ? What would happen to a typical residential electric bill ?

I have no way to prove any of this, but IMO only, and as a general believer in free market capitalism, if U.S. fed. solar tax credits had never existed, solar PV quality would have been higher sooner - the better mousetrap theory. Lacking a means to an (easier) buck the tax credit enables, a lot of scam artists would never have got into the business, pre tax credit prices would be lower than now - maybe not 30 %, but maybe close to it - and the implementation of PV as part of the U.S. energy mix would now be on a sounder footing as a matter of federal energy policy. Maybe not a lot more quantity, but perhaps a lot more feasible, sustainable, cost effective and practical. Real competition would improve quality, costs would come down faster, and there would probably be fewer and smaller arrays on roofs, but fewer people would have been scammed.

As it is now, PV is a slave to the U.S. tax code. Take the credit away and solar will die, just like it did in the '70's when, BTW, solar scams, a lot of absolutely crap equipment and tax fraud abounded.

Completely agree with this. The only difference is that I think it's the installers that are reaping most of the subsidies as opposed to the manufacturers and in that sense the federal government is getting exactly what they want. Sure, they put in the tax credit to increase the amount of cleaner energy, but more important than that is the amount of jobs being created from the solar subsidy. Solar related jobs that stay in this country are way up from the 30% tax credit and in that sense the credit is a success. You see this on the state level as well. States that give significant solar subsidies like NJ and Massachusetts have created lots of solar related jobs over the last 10 years from those subsidies.

I'm generally a believer in free market capitalism as well. But if the government does spend money I like it a lot more when it's spent on something that creates more local jobs for the economy. Solar subsidies seem to do that pretty well.

**SunEagle** · 08-17-2016, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by DanKegel

Wishful thinking.

Well I kind of agree with JPM. As long as there is a "sale" going on the price of something will continue to stay high because it is falsely lowered by that "sale". If there is more competition prices will drop.

Of course now with collusion between manufacturers (like gas stations) when someone raises/lowers their price everyone else also raises/lowers it at the same time.

Try our solar cost and savings calculator

Most Popular Topics

Phoenix Arizona - APS proposed demand charges

Phoenix Arizona - APS proposed demand charges

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment