Phoenix Arizona - APS proposed demand charges

[J.P.M.]

Completely agree with this. The only difference is that I think it's the installers that are reaping most of the subsidies as opposed to the manufacturers and in that sense the federal government is getting exactly what they want. Sure, they put in the tax credit to increase the amount of cleaner energy, but more important than that is the amount of jobs being created from the solar subsidy. Solar related jobs that stay in this country are way up from the 30% tax credit and in that sense the credit is a success. You see this on the state level as well. States that give significant solar subsidies like NJ and Massachusetts have created lots of solar related jobs over the last 10 years from those subsidies.

I'm generally a believer in free market capitalism as well. But if the government does spend money I like it a lot more when it's spent on something that creates more local jobs for the economy. Solar subsidies seem to do that pretty well.

While respecting your opinion, I believe subsidies via messing with the tax code or other means often amounts to little more than a form of enabling behavior, which usually only makes things worse and adds nothing of value or quality, solar subsidies being just one example. Another example might be the tax deduction for successful human breeding, not that it accounts for much.

[wblanford]

I am on SRP in Phoenix and have been considering solar. SRP has a demand rate E27P that is optional for non-solar customers, but required for new solar customers, which I have been on for the last 4 months. SRP's demand rate uses the highest usage for the month averaged over a half hour period starting on the hour and half hour during the peak hours. My house is two stories with a new 2 stage 2 ton heat pump for the upstairs and for the down stairs. I have my hot water heater and pool pump on timers so they do not operate during the peak hours. For the summer, I cool the upstairs until the start of the peak hours. Then the set point is raised so the upstairs unit does not operate until the end of the peak hours. The down stairs thermostat is kept at a fixed temperature. The main high usage appliances are the electric clothes dryer and the electric oven/cooking elements. We wash and dry the clothes during off peak hours. Baking is more of a challenge. We try to start the baking ten minutes before the hour or half hour to spread the usage over two half hour periods. I also try to turn off as much other usage during baking.

My peak usage was 3.5 kW in May, 4 kW in June, 4.5 kW in July and 4 kW in August.

Living with demand is a pain and definitely a reduction in the quality of life. It also increases the conflict in our house.

For more info see: https://www.solarpaneltalk.com/forum...o-from-phoenix

[Ian S]

I assume gas is not available to you. Ditching the electric dryer in favor of gas was great as I already had a gas water heater and furnace. Actually, for the last two months, we haven't needed hot water at all apart from the dishwasher: the cold water tap provides a comfortable shower water temperature!

[wblanford]

Unfortunately gas is not plumbed in my neighborhood. I don't use much hot water in the summer. We never run out of hot water with the hot water heater on the timer.

[Sunking]

If solar cannot compete with other energy sources without subsidies, and if one believes in free market capitalism, then it ought not to be an option. To cry the blues about fed. tax breaks for oil/coal/nukes as being unfair seems valid to me,

Aah JPM you are over looking something folks like Dan do not want the public to know. Oil, Gas, and Nuke do not have subsidies. What Dan calls a subsidies is a Investment with huge gains beyond what any biz can generate. The US Goberment invest roughly $5.3B annually. Not very much money. But what Dan wil not tel you is how much return there is. If you just look at road fuel taxes generates $45 B annually or roughly 8490% ROI annually. Now do we want to talk about the $1T generated annually in income, property, royalty taxes collected and the 280,000 jobs generated that pay an average of $44/hour oil and gas generate locally. Nope Dan wants all that covered up and all those high paying jobs to go to China and use illegal workers at minimum wage or les while the country goes dark.

Solar is a big black deep money pit hole. It generates less than 1% of our electric energy and would never be missed. In fact if it were gone, energy prices go down.

[DanKegel]

Redefining oil subsidies as an investment... that's creative. I guess if you reject the scientific consensus about climate change, all sorts of silly things make sense.

[J.P.M.]

Aah JPM you are over looking something folks like Dan do not want the public to know. Oil, Gas, and Nuke do not have subsidies. What Dan calls a subsidies is a Investment with huge gains beyond what any biz can generate. The US Goberment invest roughly $5.3B annually. Not very much money. But what Dan wil not tel you is how much return there is. If you just look at road fuel taxes generates $45 B annually or roughly 8490% ROI annually. Now do we want to talk about the $1T generated annually in income, property, royalty taxes collected and the 280,000 jobs generated that pay an average of $44/hour oil and gas generate locally. Nope Dan wants all that covered up and all those high paying jobs to go to China and use illegal workers at minimum wage or les while the country goes dark.

Solar is a big black deep money pit hole. It generates less than 1% of our electric energy and would never be missed. In fact if it were gone, energy prices go down.

Maybe, but IMO, folks like Dan don't have much of a clue about what they might want the public to know, but that's another off topic rant. I guess part of my free market schtick is to get rid of any meddling in capitalism (or morality for that matter) by use of the tax system for any reason whatsoever.

As for shipping jobs outside the country, it's just business. Most labor is a fungible quantity, and that's just the way it is.

As you know, welding is a skilled trade. I was outside Kuala Lumpur at a refinery construction site a long time ago doing spec/quality conformance for some pressure vessel work. The welders were all local and all ASME qualified for most/all welding procedures and PQR's, and worked for peanuts. The weld quality was the equal or better than anything I've seen in the U.S.

If folks making furniture in the Carolinas can produce more value by their labor, and it's perceived as such, their product will garner a premium. If what that product provides is not perceived as having value, Chinese furniture will be bought if lower in price. If goods can have value added due to some specific superior attribute of American labor, and that value is perceived as worthwhile by other (American) buyers, the product will sell, perhaps at a premium. A widget is a widget. the labor may or may not add value.

In any case, until Americans buy American made goods, we're sort of a nation of cheap hypocrites. Americans want everyone to buy their stuff, and bitch if they lose their jobs to foreign competition, usually because of price. But then, the same people who bitch, buy foreign stuff because it's cheaper. Seems to me you can't have it both ways.

On solar's contribution, one of the questions posed by solar's critics has me confused: If solar generates < 1% of our electric output or so, which I think is probably about right, how do you square that with the statements from some folks (and not a knock, but including you I believe) who say all the solar NEM freeloaders are placing an overly large and unfair burden on the rest of the nation's POCO customers ? To wit: If the solar contribution is so small, how can the unfair solar burden be so large ? Just wonderin'.

[Sunking]

In any case, until Americans buy American made goods, we're sort of a nation of cheap hypocrites. Americans want everyone to buy their stuff, and bitch if they lose their jobs to foreign competition, usually because of price. But then, the same people who bitch, buy foreign stuff because it's cheaper. Seems to me you can't have it both ways.

No arggument from me, But it is self imposed, we think it is only fair if we shoot ourselves in the foot first. We call that Progress, ask Dan. Much of the Trade Deficit which is what you are really talking about can be fixed by changing Tax, Energy, Environmental, Labor laws and policy. Just like nuclear waste issue is a man made problem only the USA has. Our silly laws and policy do not allow reprocessing fuel. Just plain silly.

On solar's contribution, one of the questions posed by solar's critics has me confused: If solar generates < 1% of our electric output or so, which I think is probably about right, how do you square that with the statements from some folks (and not a knock, but including you I believe) who say all the solar NEM freeloaders are placing an overly large and unfair burden on the rest of the nation's POCO customers ? To wit: If the solar contribution is so small, how can the unfair solar burden be so large ? Just wonderin'.

Because you do not have any metric to measure by, it is all invisible tax

Example when a utility is ordered by a State to comply with Net Metering Laws, the utility is allowed to take the expenses and losses they incur and put it into the Base Rate. It artificially inflates rates and is invisible to the public. Utilities are state regulated monopolies in all states except 1, but all including TX electric utilities are guaranteed a rate of return from State regulators. Any and all cost are in the Base Rate.

What about tax revenue metric? I do not believe there is one person using solar is paying taxes on the energy they generate. Come to think of it not one single EV owner paying road fuel taxes on the tax fee energy from their panels.

So I can look at Fossil Fuel Industry and can see what the gov Invested and Return each year to the tune of 9000% ROI annually. So you have Solar and all you can see is a lot of money going into a hole, and nothing coming back to be seen. Someone is paying for it, and it is not the utilities or gov.

If you really want to know you can get a Ball Park of how much solar is installed in the country, put a $/watt value on it installed. This is where it gets interesting You will get Trillion Dollar number, and you can get yearly generation from DOE. Then do the math on ROI assuming the electricity is valued at 4-cents per Kwh.

[DanKegel]

...assuming the electricity is valued at 4-cents per Kwh.

Fun fact: Chile just bought some solar at 2.91 cents per kWh.

http://www.pv-magazine.com/news/details/beitrag/renewables-sweep-chiles-electricity-market-and-set-historic-low-prices_100025801

and a lot more wind at between 3.8 and 4.7 cents per kWh,

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-17/chile-power-auction-rattles-market-for-incumbent-electric-firms

Seems as if the wind and solar energy industries have gotten pretty far down the cost curve. I'm not sure you can just blow them off as insignificant.