Wow......solar power doesnt seem to be feasible as I though!!

[Independent Patriot]

Okay....another dumarse checking in.

I really wanted to avoid another "help me, I'm a solar moron post". However, I'm left with no choice at this time.

When I joined this forum yesterday I thought to myself...."okay, I'll gather the data I need,....spend some time doing the research and then post my somewhat educated questions.." Alright, that's not going to happen now...

First of all let me say that I'm VERY discouraged with the concept of harnessing free energy from the sun.....ha! I've quickly realized that the word free shouldnt ever be used in the same sentence as solar power. WOW, this stuff is expensive.......and kinda confusing to a solar newcomer.

Seems when you factor in cost vs savings the math doesnt compute.....at least no in my feeble mind.

My current hyposthesis is this: Solar is a super concept with great potential and is an ideal solution for certain applications. However, solar is not an efficient/effective way of saving money and getting off grid without sacrificing the efficiency of many of the household appliances and other modern luxuries. In other words, to use solar as a primary source of power we'd have to make concessions and significant lifestyle changes.......or at least change the expectations of the performance from our current appliances and whatnot.

If money were no object.....yada, yada, yada..... but, it is.

Please feel free to correct me if any of the above is wrong.

Having said that......I'd still like to experiment with and use solar power. I'll give you two examples of what I'd like to do with solar power at this point.

1.) I have a radio shack that houses various communication equipment.....all 12v.......CB, Scanner, 2 meter transceiver, couple of output meters and a 400 watt amplifier. I'd like to add some back up lights inside too. Most of the time I spend less than an hour running the equipment......so, that means that I wouldn't spend more than an hour with the inside lights on too. The 400 watt transceiver amp is only for emergency use.

What would be sufficient to meet my needs as outlined above? I was thinking of a 100watt panel, a cheap charge controller and standard car battery......would that be work?

2.) The second need/expectation is for my house......if there were to be a power outage. I'd like to be able to power a light in each of the eight rooms, (maybe two or three in one room) and run a mid-size box freezer. Naturally the lights wouldnt be used during the day and at night they wouldnt be used all at one time.

Only one room would be wired with two or three lights.......maybe the living room.....this would be the gathering/meeting room. The rest of the rooms would only need one light that would provide sufficient lighting so to be able to navigate and perform normal tasks when that room is in use.

The freezer would be the only thing that would run constantly....if needed. I could probably run it during the day and turned off at night..?????

It'd be great if you guys could tell me if anything I've listed is possible......and if it is, tell me what components I'd need to achieve this.

Thanks!

[russ]

Hi IP - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

You spent your first day in a useful manner. Learning how to start in a manner that won't break the bank but will provide emergency service is the most intelligent step.

I'll defer to Mike, Sunking or others on what your equipment requirements would be.

To size any system the actual loads need to be known. What each piece of equipment, lamp etc draw. The freezer you need measure for sure - depending on the model, age and efficiency it can be anywhere a lot to not much.

Don't think your car battery will get positive comments - look at RE (renewable energy) deep cycle batteries or at least golf cart batteries for a starter.

Russ

[Perry]

I'm a solar newbie too, but I can answer a couple of the questions:

1) Never use a standard car battery. Use only a deep cycle battery for this type of app.

2) A mid-sized freezer will run your battery down too quick. My 105 AMP - HR deep cycle battery will run five 60 watt(equiv) Compact Fluorescents for only about 5 hours and then must be recharged. All five light together draw about 1 amp I'm guessing the freezer would draw several amps when the compresser is running.

3) I'm guessing a standard deep-cycle battery would have no problem running the shack for an hour. Of course, you could replace the solar panel/charge controller with a $50 battery charger but I think you know that already.

PS. Used to have a novice license in 1972 - WN1SPL. Built a 10 watt CW transmitter that ran on the 40 meter band. Still have QSL cards for as far away as Nova Scotia and North Carolina. -.-. --.-

[Independent Patriot]

Thanks for responding guys.

The shack: So, a 100 watt panel and an inexpensive charge controller used in conjunction with a deep cycle battery or a couple golf cart batteries would be work?

The house:
Lights: Instead of powering the current 110v fluorescent fixtures in the house, would it be more efficient to purchase 12v compatible lights that could be used in each room in the event of a power failure? Is there such a product? If there are 12v compatible fixtures and lights I could easily wire them up in each room. I could wire them with independent wiring and there own fixtures.

Freezer: Would it be cost efficient to purchase a dedicated solar freezer and or refrigerator or create a system to power one?

Solar Freezer cost: Approximately $1200

Standard Freezer cost: Approximately $300

Above is an example of a standard midsize freezer I'd like to power: The only info I can find on power consumption indicates that it uses 294 Kwh's per year....that equates to roughly 806 watts of usage per day....is that right?

[Sunking]

The shack: So, a 100 watt panel and an inexpensive charge controller used in conjunction with a deep cycle battery or a couple golf cart batteries would be work?

Welcome fellow HAM operator. Yes that should work for what you want. Only tweak I would suggest is if you get Trojan T-105's get the T-105RE series, not the standard golf cart battery. The RE series is a true deep cycle battery. The standard T-105 is a hybrid cross of a cranking and deep cycle meaning it is not good at either application.

The house:
Lights: Instead of powering the current 110v fluorescent fixtures in the house, would it be more efficient to purchase 12v compatible lights that could be used in each room in the event of a power failure? Is there such a product? If there are 12v compatible fixtures and lights I could easily wire them up in each room. I could wire them with independent wiring and there own fixtures.

That depends on what kind of florescent tubes you have. If they are T5 or T8 there is no more efficient light you can get for indoor lighting. Not even LED can top them. But be advised you are crossing over into a gray area with wiring into your home with building and electrical codes.

Freezer: Would it be cost efficient to purchase a dedicated solar freezer and or refrigerator or create a system to power one?

Solar Freezer cost: Approximately $1200

Standard Freezer cost: Approximately $300

Above is an example of a standard midsize freezer I'd like to power: The only info I can find on power consumption indicates that it uses 294 Kwh's per year....that equates to roughly 806 watts of usage per day....is that right?

Yes that is right, but more like 1 Kwh which will cost you roughly $3000 per Kwh. Put another way paying about $1.60/Kwh verse 12-cents to the power company.

[Independent Patriot]

Welcome fellow HAM operator. Yes that should work for what you want. Only tweak I would suggest is if you get Trojan T-105's get the T-105RE series, not the standard golf cart battery. The RE series is a true deep cycle battery. The standard T-105 is a hybrid cross of a cranking and deep cycle meaning it is not good at either application.



That depends on what kind of florescent tubes you have. If they are T5 or T8 there is no more efficient light you can get for indoor lighting. Not even LED can top them. But be advised you are crossing over into a gray area with wiring into your home with building and electrical codes.


Yes that is right, but more like 1 Kwh which will cost you roughly $3000 per Kwh. Put another way paying about $1.60/Kwh verse 12-cents to the power company.

Thanks for responding.

So, I've got the radio shack figured out.

Still need help determining what (cost effective) components I'd need to achieve the goals below.

My goals arent to save money in utility cost or to get "off grid". Currently all I want is to have an emergency power source, in the event of power failure, that can run some type of light in each room of the house (not at the same time), power small 12v appliances..i.e..coffee makers and such......and to possibly run a small to mid size chest freezer.

As far as codes and whatnot are concerned....let me see if I can clarify my ideas here.

I live in rural South Georgia, there is no one that I know of in my area running solar. I'm not even sure if the County Code Enforcement (members who I personally know on a first name basis) even know what the codes are.

Let me first address the lighting. Okay, apparently fluorescent bulbs are the most energy efficient light source available....is this correct? A typical household fluorescent bulb (60w equivalent) draws approximately 13watts.......however, they still need a 110v power source.....right? Therefore, I'd have to use a inverter to power them....right?

Do they make a fluorescent bulb that will run directly from 12v eliminating the need of a inverter?

My idea was to make up a pre-wired string of lights tailored to the measurements and layout of my house. Something with a series of "drop light like" attachments for each room........made in such a way that it can be rolled up and stored in a storage container. In the even of a power outage I could remove the light string and attach it to "hangers" in each room......maybe even have small hangers to hold the wire up, keeping it routed near the ceiling. I'm thinking the wire could be made from a heavy duty extension cord. Once it was set in place I could hook it to the power source.....via inverter or batteries?

This would only be used until the grid is restored. What do you guys think of this idea? What would I need to achieve this?

Now for the freezer: From what I gathered from you post, you are saying that it'd cost more to build a solar powered energy source to run a conventional freezer than it would be to buy the dedicated solar powered freezer?

BTW Sunking, dont call me HAM yet. I'm studying for my Technician's License now. I got into communication like many others....playing with grandpa's old cb's. I got bitten by the CB bug pretty bad a couple of years ago and one thing led to another. However, as you know......CB leaves something to be desired....lol! It's a shame that the airways are littered with the garbage 11meter currently produces. I bought an old Kenwood 2m and built a J Pole antenna so I could start listening to HAM operators......I figured I may learn something that way too.

[Mike90250]

100 - 200 W of PV panels, should run a light in the shack, and a radio for a couple hours daily. the 400W amp, would only go a few minutes, before the batteries fail.

As Sunking says, the freezer will need nearly a 1,000 w of solar PV. to insure reliable operation, as it runs at night, the solar will need to both recharge the batteries, and run the freezer for the 4 or 5 solar hours the panels are generating power. You might not need your car headlights for 12 hours in the summer, but the intense light needed to generate power only lasts a few hours, if there are no clouds.

If you expect outages of less than a week, you can use a small 2000 watt auto-throttle inverter genset to charge a battery bank, and run your freezer. $1500 for a genset, or 10,000 for solar panels ??

If you are planning for TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) than you'd want the PV , or if you expect extended outages of more than a week.

[Perry]

Above is an example of a standard midsize freezer I'd like to power: The only info I can find on power consumption indicates that it uses 294 Kwh's per year....that equates to roughly 806 watts of usage per day....is that right?[/QUOTE]


294 KWH's per year = 0.8 KWH per day or 800 watt hours per day.

A 100 AMP-HR 12 volt battery has 1.2 KWH, but you can only use half of it, or 0.6 KWH soooooooooo...

A single 100 amp-hr battery will run the freezer for 3/4 of a day before dropping to 50% capacity.

[Sunking]

A single 100 amp-hr battery will run the freezer for 3/4 of a day before dropping to 50% capacity.

On paper before you apply the Peukert Factor, so if the load draws more than 5 amps it will not last that long.

[Independent Patriot]

100 - 200 W of PV panels, should run a light in the shack, and a radio for a couple hours daily. the 400W amp, would only go a few minutes, before the batteries fail.

Roger!

As Sunking says, the freezer will need nearly a 1,000 w of solar PV. to insure reliable operation, as it runs at night, the solar will need to both recharge the batteries, and run the freezer for the 4 or 5 solar hours the panels are generating power.

It seems the solar freezer would be the best choice at $1200. I'm assuming that it would require FAR less pv dependency(therefore less equipment) than the standard freezer.

Here is a chart on it's power consumption. I'm looking at the DCF-165 model.


According to the chart on most days it'd pull approximately 272watts/23AH. How much pv wattage would I need to power this unit? Also how many batteries and other components would I need for this option?

If you expect outages of less than a week, you can use a small 2000 watt auto-throttle inverter genset to charge a battery bank, and run your freezer. $1500 for a genset, or 10,000 for solar panels ??

If you are planning for TEOTWAWKI (the end of the world as we know it) than you'd want the PV , or if you expect extended outages of more than a week.

I guess you could say I've turned into a prepper. Since having children I've become very proactive in basic self reliance and disaster preparedness. I like the idea of solar as a long term off grid power supply. It gives me more comfort than depending on fossil fuels.

BTW, do you have any comments on my lighting idea below?

Let me first address the lighting. Okay, apparently fluorescent bulbs are the most energy efficient light source available....is this correct? A typical household fluorescent bulb (60w equivalent) draws approximately 13watts.......however, they still need a 110v power source.....right? Therefore, I'd have to use a inverter to power them....right?

Do they make a fluorescent bulb that will run directly from 12v eliminating the need of a inverter?

My idea was to make up a pre-wired string of lights tailored to the measurements and layout of my house. Something with a series of "drop light like" attachments for each room........made in such a way that it can be rolled up and stored in a storage container. In the even of a power outage I could remove the light string and attach it to "hangers" in each room......maybe even have small hangers to hold the wire up, keeping it routed near the ceiling. I'm thinking the wire could be made from a heavy duty extension cord. Once it was set in place I could hook it to the power source.....via inverter or batteries?

This would only be used until the grid is restored. What do you guys think of this idea? What would I need to achieve this?

[Mike90250]

Before you get to fired up about the SunDanzer gear, do a search for reliability and satisfied customers. You are likely to end up with a small unit, eats more power than spec, manual defrost and repairs with parts from only 1 vendor.
10, 20 years ago, there was no choice, nowdays there is Energy Star rated fridges, and they are REAL.

Lights, we need wattage and time.

[Independent Patriot]

.

Lights, we need wattage and time.

The items, parts, components and theories I've listed thus far are only my (feeble) attempt at presenting my solar goals to you guys with the hopes of someone telling me in specific terms the process and components that I'd need to make this happen.

Lighting project:

I want to build a light string with 8 lights/fixtures on a heavy duty extension cord so I can hang it up in my house during an emergency power outage......one light per room.

The lights will not be used during the day. Usage at night will be at a minimum. No more than three 13watt lights on at a time. Total run time would be 4 hours max. So, (3) 13w running for 4hrs max.

I want to know what would be the most efficient light to use. Is there a 12v fluorescent bulb available so that run it directly off of a battery bank or would a typical 13watt 110v household fluorescent work with the light string plugged into a 12v power inverter?

Please suggest the panels, batteries and components needed to achieve this emergency back up light system.

Before you get to fired up about the SunDanzer gear, do a search for reliability and satisfied customers. You are likely to end up with a small unit, eats more power than spec, manual defrost and repairs with parts from only 1 vendor.
10, 20 years ago, there was no choice, nowdays there is Energy Star rated fridges, and they are REAL.

Freezer Project:

So, the "solar" compatible freezer isnt nearly as efficient as "they" claim huh?

Is there anyway to achieve a solar powered freezer for around $2000?

If not, what about a refrigerator?

[Sunking]

Lighting project:

I want to build a light string with 8 lights/fixtures on a heavy duty extension cord so I can hang it up in my house during an emergency power outage......one light per room.

The lights will not be used during the day. Usage at night will be at a minimum. No more than three 13watt lights on at a time. Total run time would be 4 hours max. So, (3) 13w running for 4hrs max.

I want to know what would be the most efficient light to use. Is there a 12v fluorescent bulb available so that run it directly off of a battery bank or would a typical 13watt 110v household fluorescent work with the light string plugged into a 12v power inverter?

Please suggest the panels, batteries and components needed to achieve this emergency back up light system.

What is your location, and how many days do you expect it to run? We can't be specific without specific details.

There are 12 volt CFL lights available. Any RV shop has them. Just based on what info you have given a 100 watt panel, 15 amp charge controller, and a 12 volt battery would work if you use 12 volt CFL lamps. If you use AC lights you will need a good 100 to 200 watt inverter.

But the most efficient light are T5 florescent tubes, but the smallest fixtures are 28 watts and use AC

Freezer Project:

So, the "solar" compatible freezer isnt nearly as efficient as "they" claim huh?

Is there anyway to achieve a solar powered freezer for around $2000?

No it will cost you a minimum of $3000/Kwh just for the panels, charge controllers and batteries. The fridge is extra on top of that.

[Independent Patriot]

What is your location, and how many days do you expect it to run? We can't be specific without specific details.

There are 12 volt CFL lights available. Any RV shop has them. Just based on what info you have given a 100 watt panel, 15 amp charge controller, and a 12 volt battery would work if you use 12 volt CFL lamps. If you use AC lights you will need a good 100 to 200 watt inverter.

But the most efficient light are T5 florescent tubes, but the smallest fixtures are 28 watts and use AC

I live in Southwest Georgia just above the Florida state line.

As far as how many days I expect to run it.....? It's hard to say....I'd like to hope for the best yet plan for the worst. I'm a typical prepper so I'd like to be able to depend on my lighting for a few years if need be. Hopefully I'd only need them a week or two.

BTW, what makes the T5 rated at 28 watts more efficient than a standard 13 watt CFL?...........more lumens to watt ratio?

Thanks.


I guess I'll scrap my solar panel freezer idea and build a root cellar.....lol!

[Sunking]

As far as how many days I expect to run it.....? It's hard to say....I'd like to hope for the best yet plan for the worst. I'm a typical prepper so I'd like to be able to depend on my lighting for a few years if need be. Hopefully I'd only need them a week or two.

OK. I asked because if all you need is a day or two, you would have no use for solar panels.

BTW, what makes the T5 rated at 28 watts more efficient than a standard 13 watt CFL?...........more lumens to watt ratio?

Pretty much it. FWIW it is called efficacy measured in Lumens/watt.