Is Sunpower price difference worth it? -- thoughts, posting as new topic

[MarkH180]

Regarding Sunpower from quotes I've seen / thoughts: "top-of-the-line" "is it worth the price difference?" question. Hard to answer because inevitably it is a mix of objective and subjective opinion. I've seen quotes and Sunpower seems to typically be $.70/watt DC more expensive. It's a tough call. I do see some merit in the argument that it's a heavier duty, better constructed panel with least degradation and most warranted/promised output over time, but more on Sunpower company size/strength argument backing up 25-yrs material,labor, shipping cost all covered on their panels....kinda like buying insurance even if the local contractor goes out of business.

The argument against Sunpower premium I've seen is the price difference is too much to pay for this "insurance" and warranted output promise -- and this argument can definitely hold water given with another high quality panel/company like LG or SolarWorld, not much warranty service/failure could be required over system life, and the savings achieved by lower cost system could go toward warranty service even in the worst case if that manufacturer or contractor has future problems.

I don't totally agree solar panels are in the same commodity category even if you're talking worldwide reputable manufacturers, since we're combining quality with company strength as well. On that basis, I have come to the opinion that I see LG Solar and Sunpower as overall "better" companies, compared to SolarWorld, for example.
Some Sunpower vs. SolarWorld company statistics 2015, respectively: EBITA earnings -- $215M vs $35M; Revenue -- $2.37B vs $763M; Market Cap: $3 billion vs. $132 million

In the end, I think the decision can be similar to the car market -- it's hard to strip emotion/feel completely out. Part of the decision is how I "feel" about the actual system going on my roof, solar panel brand/manufacturer strength and reputation, and very importantly the track record of the installation contractor themselves. Then, the answer for everybody will be different if the price difference is close enough to still be in the budget if it's the more expensive system.

So if I'm seeing a .$70/watt DC price difference on a 5.2 kW system between LG/SolarWorld vs. Sunpower, using $3.80/watt base (Northern CA)
This would be: $19,760 vs. $23,400 gross
After 30% fed tax credit: $13,832 net vs. $16,380 net

It's a very subjective question to answer, given all the variables: is the $2,548 net difference worth it? Which one do I feel better going with?
As the market matures, I think it'll become more and more brand as part of the decision....people pay $2,500 difference on similar car makes/brands all the time.

[sensij]

As the market matures, I think it'll become more and more brand as part of the decision....people pay $2,500 difference on similar car makes/brands all the time.

Eh.. People spend a lot of time in their cars, and use them to interact with others. Your panels just sit on your roof (or wherever) and make electricity. At the very high end, "curb appeal" might be worth paying for if the panels are installed in a way that might make an impression on a potential buyer. Beyond that... I don't see a lot of "brand" in water heaters, for example, perhaps a better analogy than a car when function is considered.

[inetdog]

There is one situation where the added efficiency of the Sunpower panels would have a significant effect on the purchase decision:
If the mounting area for the panels is strictly limited and even the high end of the PV generation is only offsetting a high tier rate and not bringing your rate all the way down to baseline it may make sense to go for the panels that let you put more kW on the same limited roof area.
If you are close to zeroing out your bill anyway, then paying a premium to fit in a bit more power still does not make sense.

[Yaryman]

It's a very subjective question to answer, given all the variables: is the $2,548 net difference worth it? Which one do I feel better going with?
As the market matures, I think it'll become more and more brand as part of the decision....people pay $2,500 difference on similar car makes/brands all the time.

Just a quick guesstimation, that extra $2,500 is going to add at least another year to your payback time.

That's another year you might move before breaking even on the system.

If you move in 2 years, that premium you paid for the top of the line panels will not get you a NICKEL more when you sell.
If you move in 2 years, that premium you paid for the top of the line panels will not get you a NICKEL more when you sell.

Yeah, I repeated that line to make a point. Those panels will not get you a NICKEL more if you sell.

That's another year you might need a new roof before breaking even on the system.

The estimated payback on my 5.04 kW SF Bay Area system is 5 years, 7 months with a 4.25% loan.
I went with premium panels, that being SolarWorld. Would make no sense to extend the break even to 7 years for "top of the line panels".

[J.P.M.]

As I wrote in another thread to the same first post in this thread, IMO, S.P. is, for a lot of reasons, probably not worth the 15-25% or so up front premium from a cost effective standpoint.

[Sunking]

You to tell us if it is worth it or not.

The only thing unique or special about SP panels is their conversion efficiency is higher than all others. Makes a great Marketing Tool and PR. They are not higher quality than any other reputable than other manufactures. They will not last longer than other manufactures, and they are not nicer looking than any other manufacture.

So what does more efficient mean to Joe Homeowner? They take up slightly less space for a given wattage.So if your space is limited, and SP panels are the only solution to your limited space, then yes it would be worth it. Otherwise you gain nothing, pissing money away, and extending pay back time so you get screwed twice.

The only folks who will always be happy with SP panels are the manufactures and distributor/installer because they make a higher profit margin off you.

So you tell us if it is worth it or not.

[MarkH180]

To the recent responses, I'd also say for those considering solar, comparing LG to SolarWorld to Sunpower, it is possible to hear "Sunpower is not worth it" many times, and therefore not pursue it, potentially not investigating the pros/cons fully enough. To me it's a much closer value proposition between LG Solar and Sunpower than some other opinions I've read here. One not obviously a better decision then the other......

For the example $.70/watt DC pricing difference I referred to, or about $2,500 after tax credit on an example 5.2 kW system --I feel it's a close call / strong arguments for both, that one solution isn't obviously better than the other even with a price difference. One thing LG and Sunpower have in common for example is financial strength, high quality mono silicon panels and large companies......But there are still some other differentiators between them I feel worth considering.

Someone deciding they'd want to use Sunpower instead of the LG/SolarWorld isn't necessarily unreasonable or misguided. I'd argue that an informed solar shopper could justify a $.70/watt DC price difference if after investigating they came to the conclusion(s) which they felt as legit......:

----that Sunpower can be argued as a larger, stronger, more globally diversified company in financial terms than many panel companies such as SolarWorld;
----Unique 25-yr warranty coverage for materials, labor and shipping on their panels -- can look good long term to any new home buyer or if homeowner is staying for a long time;
----that Sunpower's claims could hold merit that by using heavier duty materials, solid copper backing of cell there's less chance of cell interconnect break-down over time.
----It's just a cherry on the top if the panels do in fact degrade less over time and produce a little more over time than some other brands and use less space, with the items of company strength, technical experience, warranty coverage, likelihood of being around, and panel construction being larger factors in the decision.

Some I think could definitely decide that the $2,500 is worth it and be reasonable; just as someone could decide that $2,500 isn't worth enough extra value from Sunpower.
It could be all fluff and PR, but not necessarily.

[MarkH180]

You to tell us if it is worth it or not.
Otherwise you gain nothing, pissing money away, and extending pay back time so you get screwed twice.

I see what you're saying, SunKing, but a manufacturer in this case isnt THAT obvious a rip-off, offering NOTHING that might be better
than another manufacturer?

Too much of a biased evaluation comparing Sunpower to others. An example of not basing opinions on reasonable facts here and not helpful
to homeowner's really trying to evaluate differences.

Honestly speaking, of the several positives that a solar shopper could read / conclude about Sunpower, isn't the 25-yr material, shipping and labor coverage
a potential benefit that can hold value for some buyers? To me it's one thing that makes a decision between LG Solar and Sunpower a little more nuanced and
not obvious...

[Sunking]

Too much of a biased evaluation comparing Sunpower to others. An example of not basing opinions on reasonable facts here and not helpful to homeowner's really trying to evaluate differences.

I am not bias, there have been a few rare times I Had To Specify SP Panels. I gave you the facts. There are only two characteristics about SP panels that make them different from all other manufactures. .

1. They are the most efficient, with Sanyo HIT extremely close second.That only becomes important with limited space.
2. Most expensive.

Now my opinion based on those facts is you need to justify the 20% higher cost. Only way to do that is space limitations where SP panels are the only panels that can achieve the power requirement in the with the space limitations. That is not bias, rather good management end engineering practices. No feeling or passion involved just the facts.

[Yaryman]

MarkH180, it sound like you want to buy the Sunpower panels. No problem, go ahead.

While some of the advice you get here may not be coated with the proper amount of sugar, it comes from people that know more about solar than you and I do.

If you want to pay an extra $2500 go ahead. You will be adding about a year to payback on the system. Your choice.

Will your system be string inverters, or micro inverters? Will you be able to monitor each panel?
I ask, because without individual panel monitoring, in 5 years you will NEVER be able to detect if one panel has gone bad.

I am just reading the room. You want the Sunpower panels and you want somebody to say it's OK. There, I said it. It's OK.

[J.P.M.]

To the recent responses, I'd also say for those considering solar, comparing LG to SolarWorld to Sunpower, it is possible to hear "Sunpower is not worth it" many times, and therefore not pursue it, potentially not investigating the pros/cons fully enough. To me it's a much closer value proposition between LG Solar and Sunpower than some other opinions I've read here. One not obviously a better decision then the other......

For the example $.70/watt DC pricing difference I referred to, or about $2,500 after tax credit on an example 5.2 kW system --I feel it's a close call / strong arguments for both, that one solution isn't obviously better than the other even with a price difference. One thing LG and Sunpower have in common for example is financial strength, high quality mono silicon panels and large companies......But there are still some other differentiators between them I feel worth considering.

Someone deciding they'd want to use Sunpower instead of the LG/SolarWorld isn't necessarily unreasonable or misguided. I'd argue that an informed solar shopper could justify a $.70/watt DC price difference if after investigating they came to the conclusion(s) which they felt as legit......:

----that Sunpower can be argued as a larger, stronger, more globally diversified company in financial terms than many panel companies such as SolarWorld;
----Unique 25-yr warranty coverage for materials, labor and shipping on their panels -- can look good long term to any new home buyer or if homeowner is staying for a long time;
----that Sunpower's claims could hold merit that by using heavier duty materials, solid copper backing of cell there's less chance of cell interconnect break-down over time.
----It's just a cherry on the top if the panels do in fact degrade less over time and produce a little more over time than some other brands and use less space, with the items of company strength, technical experience, warranty coverage, likelihood of being around, and panel construction being larger factors in the decision.

Some I think could definitely decide that the $2,500 is worth it and be reasonable; just as someone could decide that $2,500 isn't worth enough extra value from Sunpower.
It could be all fluff and PR, but not necessarily.

Mark: Somewhat echoing/adding to Varyman's comment, you sound like someone who has his mind made up and is looking for validation of your opinion.

First off, no validation is needed. Your opinion is what it is and stands by itself.

A lot of, but by no means all, other opinion around here, most of it with no skin in the game, but a lot of experience in solar and other engineering of all types holds that Sunpower, while good stuff, is not, in many or most situations, a cost effective product choice for the required duty.

There is no hard answer for any situation, but for most applications, using Sunpower is like hiring a surgeon as a butcher. It'll sure work, but at what price ?

While some folks are concerned about the environment, most folks are also and primarily concerned about cost, or more specifically, the most cost effective ways to lower the cost of providing electricity to their home or business. To that end, I've found most folks are abysmally ignorant of how to estimate the most cost effective ways to reach that goal. So, they wind up buying into the solar hype from peddlers and the tree hugger mafia, and throwing money at a self inflicted high electric bill using the overall least cost effective method to reduce that bill - that is - solar PV - first, instead of last, if at all.

Sunpower, while not the only one, seems to, IMO only, have raised the spreading of that hype to an art form. More opinion: That hype/sales pitch bordering on hard sell is one of the big reasons for their success, and, sort of putting my money where my mouth (or opinion) are, one reason why I own a bunch of their stock. Basically, I'm betting on the stupendous ignorance and gullibility of the general public to swallow the stuff that S.P. pukes out. I'm doing so in the spirit of what someone once said about no one ever losing money underestimating the intelligence of the general public.

I think solar is a great way to provide energy. I'm one of its biggest fans. So much so that I changed careers and became an engineer many years ago, initially to be able to spot the B.S. I was getting from nitwit peddlers and tree huggers. Those types are with us always.

Everyone who tells you what you want to hear is not necessarily your friend. Those who tell you stuff you don't like are not necessarily your enemy.

Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

[Sunking]

Sunpower, while not the only one, seems to, IMO only, have raised the spreading of that hype to an art form. More opinion: That hype/sales pitch bordering on hard sell is one of the big reasons for their success, and, sort of putting my money where my mouth (or opinion) are, one reason why I own a bunch of their stock. Basically, I'm betting on the stupendous ignorance and gullibility of the general public to swallow the stuff that S.P. pukes out.

I knew we were related. Our common family member is PT Barnum: "There is a sucker born every minute"

[J.P.M.]

I knew we were related. Our common family member is PT Barnum: "There is a sucker born every minute"

Yea, from your pic, I could see the resemblance in attitude and particularly waist down characteristics.

[leffjouie]

Mark, I agree with your comments. I've found the most vocal voices in solarpaneltalk are not pro S.P. except for footprint.

I went with SunPower and I have no regrets. I found a deal and paid a 10% premium vs. the best LG300 quote I could find.

I plan on being in my home for a very long time. The warranty, the company stability, the footprint, and the claimed production gains were worth the premium in my mind.

I did extensive research and what I found was benefits beyond just the name plate watts (which many base their claims of commoditizing solar). I was able to find good independent stats and spec sheets that showed the benefit in power produced at high temps, low irradiance, and longevity.

I'm sure some may call me a sucker for choosing S.P., but I've definitely spent waaaay too much time searching out the available data on the topic of LG vs. SP.

I'm not here to get into a pissing match, because I'm certainly outnumbered. In the end, I'm very happy with my decision and feel that it was worth it.

Mark - I've got your back and if you want to chat offline, PM me. No, I don't work for SunPower.

[sensij]

leffjouie... the easiest way to make your case that (high temps, low irradiance, longevity) are superior is to share your production data on a site like PVOutput.org where it can be compared to established models or similar non-sunpower systems in your area with similar orientation. Every time I've seen a sunpower system compared in this way, it fails to outperform, but maybe your system is different.