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  • LLB
    Junior Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 36

    damp heat, humidity-freeze, and mechanical load. These tests have been identified as important in assessing reliability [38]; however, they are not designed to estimate useful lifetime because they do not show a strong correlation with field performance and degradation. Instead, these tests are designed to ensure safety and identify infant mortality issues due to basic manufacturing quality [28] [21].

    SunPowers current generation module has a rate of only 27 returns per million modules built. This includes all post-site-commissioning world-wide warranty returns of E-Series modules (Jan 2006 through July-2012, 6.5 million modules).

    Various field studies have measured the degradation rate of conventional crystalline modules at between 0.6% per year to 1.5% per year, so a reasonable assessment is 1.0% per year [8], [9], [10], [11], [12] (Figure 4). These studies are discussed further in Appendix A.

    In order to perform a more robust assessment, SunPower recently completed its own fleet-wide system level degradation study of 445 systems within the SunPower operating fleet. The study included 266 systems (86 MW) using the previous generation of SunPower modules as old as 3.5 years, and 179 systems (42 MW), using Conventional Modules as old as 6 years. Data spanning back to the site commissioning date were used to determine fleet-wide degradation rates, representing 3.2 million module-years of monitored data. The study [13], and a review by independent engineering firm Black and
    Veatch, are available upon request.

    A key result from this study is shown graphically below in Figure 5. The annual system power degradation rate (including inverter) for SunPower systems with the previous generation of modules was found to be -0.32 +0.32 % (95% confidence) per year, while non-SunPower conventional systems were found to degrade at -1.25 +0.25% (95% confidence) per year, and in both cases were shown to be linear with time.

    SunPower design differences
    Cell architecture and metallization
    Conventional cells are made of various grades of monocrystalline or multicrystalline p-type silicon.
    The front-surface is also an n-type emitter, typically doped with phosphorus; the back is typically a p-type emitter doped with boron. When the conventional cell is illuminated, electron-hole pairs are formed within the cell, and they are collected at these doped regions and transferred into metal conductors.

    Cell-to-cell interconnects
    To create a module, cells have to be interconnected. From a reliability perspective, these interconnects are crucial, since failure to maintain electrical contact between cells results in total failure of the module to perform, and in the worst-case scenario could potentially result in an arc-fault failure.

    Conventional Module manufacturers typically rely on tin-coated copper ribbons, which are soldered along the length of the cell to printed grid lines (Figure 7). Soldering metal and crystalline materials together is considered state of the art and still leads to reliability challenges from manufacturing induced micro-cracks and stress from differences in thermal expansion [14]. The cells are connected by daisy chaining ribbons that alternate from the front of one cell to the back of the next. As modules heat and cool, the gaps between cells expand and contract, kneading these ribbons back and forth [15].

    A recent NREL study [16] has shown that as a result of thermal expansion, they are much more likely to fail within 25 years if not properly strain relieved (in the tabbing ribbon where it traverses between cells, Figure 7).

    In contrast, the SunPower cell interconnection is an engineered tab (Figure 8). Instead of bonding ribbons along the entire length of the cell, a stamped metal interconnect is soldered to the edges of the cell.

    Secondly, they have cut-outs which allow expansion and contraction as the cells grow and shrink with temperature, providing strain relief.

    Third, there are three solder pads on each side of the inter-connect, providing redundancy. In the case a solder joint ever fails, current is rerouted through the remaining pads onto the cell surface, which also has parallel bus-bars to distribute current as necessary.
    Finally, when there is a (hot cell) due to shading or local soiling, the solder joint does not get as hot because the thick copper interconnect efficiently draws heat away from the hot cell [18], keeping the solder pads cooler.

    The design does not look very different to the casual observer, both have cells encapsulated in a polymer encapsulant that is bonded both to the front side glass and a polymer backsheet. However, the materials and their quality can vary widely and their specific properties can have important impacts on performance.

    Materials and suppliers for other laminate components, such as glass, encapsulant, and backsheet, vary between manufacturers, and their specific properties can have important ramifications for long-term reliability. It is beyond the scope of this white paper to do exhaustive comparisons, but SunPowers materials qualification processes have identified a wide variation in quality for these materials.

    SunPower has produced high efficiency cells for decades. The original cell design was intended for use in concentrating applications; however, in the mid-2000s, non-concentrated flat plate modules came into widespread production.

    The generations of these SunPower modules can be put into three categories:
    - Previous generation: 2005-2011. These modules required positive grounding. One version:
    - Gen 2 Maxeon cells. Module efficiencies up to 18%.
    - Current generation: 2011 onward. No positive grounding required. Two versions:
    - E series: Gen 2 Maxeon cells. Module efficiencies up to 20%.
    - X series: Gen 3 Maxeon cells. Module efficiencies up to 22% and better shade tolerance.

    SunPowers patented back-contact design is substantially different from the designs used by Conventional Module manufacturers.

    Part of SunPowers design qualification includes a dynamic load test (DLT). In this test, a force of 2400Pa is repeatedly applied to the front and back of the module, deflecting it back and forth.
    This test is designed to ensure that a product can withstand a lifetime of shipping, installation, and environmental stresses and that there are no unfavorable characteristics inherent in the design.

    A side-by-side comparison of a conventional multi-crystalline silicon module and a SunPower module in this dynamic load test is shown in Figure 13. After 1000 cycles, the standard efficiency module shows several broken cells in the center, and a power loss of nearly 4%. The shunt resistance of this module has dropped by more than 20%, which results in parasitic yield losses at lower irradiance levels [23]. Low shunt resistance can also push cells into reverse bias which leads to more frequent diode activation and yield loss. If the shunt resistance is low enough, or if the diode fails, the cell may form a catastrophic hotspot [24].

    2400Pa of stress corresponds to extreme winds (130 mph, 209 kph) or snow loads (about
    3m deep, assuming 80 kg/m3 snow density) that are unlikely to be observed in real life at most, but not all, installations. Nonetheless a basic tenet of design qualification testing is that larger safety factors are generally better, since real-world stresses can come from unexpected events. For example, stresses occur during shipping and installation. An installer weighing 80 kg (175 lbs) stepping on a module with a boot that has a contact area of roughly 3inch x 10inch (0.019 m2) induces local normal stress on the surface of the glass of about 41,000 Pa. Fortunately, the glass spreads this stress over a larger area (it bows relatively smoothly), reducing the strain on the cells; but, it is not as forgiving as a uniform pressure applied over the entire surface.

    Results for Partial Shading and Reverse Bias Stress
    Solar cells in a module are essentially current sources connected in series. When their current flow is not perfectly matched, mismatch losses occur and the weakest cells can operate in reverse bias. When a cell is in reverse bias it essentially consumes power from neighboring cells and converts it into heat.

    In agricultural areas, airborne dust settles on modules and sticks due to the morning dew; if the dew and dust preferentially collects at one end or corner of the module, the partial shading can also cause reverse bias.

    Finally, cell manufacturing defects can also push cells into permanent reverse bias.
    SunPowers back contact design performs differently than a conventional cell, due to fundamental design differences. In the conventional cell, heavily doped layers (regions rich with charge carriers) are separated by bulk silicon, which is lightly doped, creating space between heavily p-doped and n-doped areas on the front and back (see Figure 6, left).

    SunPowers back contact design has steep doping profiles on the backside of the cell, which can be seen where the p-doped and n-doped areas are immediately adjacent (Figure 6, right). These regions are rich in charge carriers, so when a cell is in reverse bias, current flows more easily, resulting in a lower reverse-bias voltage.


    19 SPR X21 345 / SMA 6000TL-US22

    Comment

    • LLB
      Junior Member
      • Aug 2015
      • 36

      As a result, a typical conventional cell has a breakdown voltage of approximately -15V to -20V [30], whereas the SunPower cells breakdown voltage is only about -5.5V for its second generation Maxeon cells (E-Series modules) and -2.5V for its third generation Maxeon cells (X-Series modules). With a lower reverse bias voltage there is less power, and therefore less heat, to dissipate. Table 1 shows a side-by-side comparison of the heat dissipation between the two designs.

      Manufacturers generally install diodes across substrings within the module (Figure 20). These substrings almost always divide the module into thirds (20 cells in a 60-cell Conventional Module or 24 cells in a 72- cell Conventional Module). When a conventional cell is shaded, the voltage drop across the cell is limited to the voltage produced by the other cells within its sub-string, and a large fraction of the current is shunted through the bypass diode, deactivating the substring.

      It might seem counterintuitive that a higher reverse bias voltage is generally a desired trait for
      Conventional Module manufacturers, since it raises the temperature of a cell in reverse bias. However, a higher reverse bias voltage ensures a bypass diode will activate at lower threshold, making the module more sensitive to reverse bias conditions, such as partial shading or cell defects. While this module design initially protects against thermal breakdown, there are two potential side effects, production and long term reliability.

      A lower threshold for bypass diode activation means partial shading or soiling are more likely to activate the diode. When the bypass diode activates, the voltage contribution from that substring is eliminated, reducing power proportionally. In a typical Conventional Module, a single cell perpetually in reverse bias will effectively reduce a 240W module into a 160W module.

      Further, an activated diode runs at an elevated temperature reducing the remaining life of the diode. All diodes will eventually fail and the life depends on temperature as well as several other factors, including module design, diode quality, junction box heat transfer, and module installation. Depending on how a diode fails, it can either permanently remove a substring from that modules production or allow a shaded cell to run in reverse bias unmitigated, causing high heating in areas of a conventional cell which allow current to flow, generally causing backsheet damage.

      SunPower cells operate in reverse bias with uniform breakdown across the cell, resulting in much lower temperatures, so bypass diodes are not required to ensure long term reliability. SunPower does include diodes in its J-boxes, but the diodes do not turn on when only one cell is shaded. The voltage drop across a single reverse-biased cell is not sufficient to drive significant current through the diode.

      SunPower includes diodes only to increase the production of the system in the case that several cells in the same substring go into reverse bias. In this case, the diodes limit the total amount of power that can be dissipated by reverse-biased cells.

      Light-induced degradation (LID) is a very fast degradation mechanism which drives an efficiency loss of
      1-4% in p-type silicon within hours of exposure [33], [34], [35]. It was first discovered in 1972 by R. L. Crabb [36], and since then, the mechanisms have been comprehensively studied, culminating with a model and strong evidence for boron-oxygen complex formation by Schmidt [34] and Glunz [37]. The fact that it occurs only in p-type, and specifically boron-doped silicon (e.g. gallium-doped Si does not exhibit
      LID) leads to an obvious advantage for Maxeon cells, which are n-doped both on the front surface and in the bulk. This mechanism has been covered in numerous journal articles and trade publications.
      The End
      19 SPR X21 345 / SMA 6000TL-US22

      Comment

      • LLB
        Junior Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 36

        Originally posted by littleharbor
        Tell you what, I'll pull out the panels I have and have already explained the history on and take some pics just for you. See you Tuesday.
        Why bother sending more pics that look like the ones you just sent? I see no need to do that.

        "have already explained the history" You must be referring to "costal Southern California", hmm, seems a little thin.
        Does that mean LID, the inter-connect or the encapsulant failed?
        Last edited by LLB; 05-20-2018, 08:54 AM.
        19 SPR X21 345 / SMA 6000TL-US22

        Comment

        • littleharbor
          Solar Fanatic
          • Jan 2016
          • 1998

          Fine, I won't waste my time then. I've got better things to do than quibble incessantly. There was a comment made earlier about the copper backed cells being no better for heat dissipation and jokingly suggesting adding cooling fins to the cells. I showed some pix clearly showing overheated cells and now we have you with your panties in a bunch over it.

          Work out your issues here with the others. I'm done. If it makes you feel better that you may have won the argument because I don't have the facts you desire, whatever.

          BTW SunPower wasn't selling commercial solar panels in the 70's. As far as I can tell SunPower modules weren't available for residential systems until the 2000's. I'll leave it to you to show otherwise.

          Have a great day
          2.2kw Suntech mono, Classic 200, NEW Trace SW4024

          Comment

          • J.P.M.
            Solar Fanatic
            • Aug 2013
            • 14926

            LLB: I believe you are one of maybe 3 or 4 posters who have had/done posts longer than some of mine. I'll not get into a lengthy discussion of the benefits/drawbacks of S.P. with you. Looks like your latest post(s) deal mostly with respect to S.P. as well as interpretations and opinions of such reference data as that information may apply to S.P. and other mfgs.

            Opinions and interpretations are what they are. We have both stated some of ours in a place that's purposed for opinions and information exchange. So be it.

            I will only comment on how your interpretations of what I've done and what I may think may need correcting as they relate to my experience or qualifications. I believe that's within my purview.

            It seems that my brief re-counting of some of my community pro bono work may have led you to think that's my only experience in energy related matters.

            While I believe I'm a normally reserved and private person, I don't like confusion or being misrepresented, intentionally or otherwise, so I'd like to comment on what I believe may be some of your misinterpretations as I see them relating to me.

            Before I start and for the record: Formal education is not something that means a whole lot to me. I relate any such experience I may have been lucky enough to receive and build on only as clarification. FWIW, I'm wary of the abilities of folks whose first statement after their name is something like : "and I have degree in so and so". Well, so, and so what ? Do you know anything ? About the best and most savvy P.E. I ever met was a mustang who got a P.E. license the hard way : No formal education and at least 12 years of qualifying experience, that is, being in responsible charge of engineering work. P.E''s know what I'm writing about and know that drill.

            I was trained (some would say formally educated) in the 60's as a physicist. Not being able to afford further education, and finding that the job market in the field for mere baccalaureate physicists being slim, I became a peddler of industrial equipment and made decent $$ in a boring way for ~ 10 years. I got the solar bug ~ '75 while trying to learn how to stay warm in a cold climate. The curiosity I had, lucky circumstances and getting tired of the B./S. I got from other peddlers (of solar products) all seemed to coalesce at one time and place: I quit working, got more training (returned to school and parked my ass in classrooms long enough to get another tuition receipt), began a real engineering education and got a job as a mechanical engineer designing power and process equipment not unlike some of the stuff I formerly peddled, and, most importantly, learning more of how to think and see the world like an engineer sees and interprets the world. All the while keeping and developing the interest in solar and renewable energy that sparked my return to school in the first place. Along the way, as well as learning to think and see the world like an engineer, and speaking what I believed to be truth to the often B.S. from solar conmen and peddlers, I obtained a P.E. license (mechanical) and got more training (M.S.M.E.) that took about 6 years on a part time basis + 2 yrs. to write the required thesis, the subject of which was far from solar or R.E. and dealt with vibration analysis with respect to some particular aspects of the failure modes of shell and tube heat exchangers of the type and nature that would later produce the San Onofre failures. In true Peter Principle fashion, over the years, I progressed into several levels of engineering management. Last job title (which admittedly means little in the bigger scheme of things) before retirement was Director of Special Projects. I was always active in promoting my profession and was active in professional organizations such as he ASME, ASHRAE, local P.E. society chapters and others, and also the International Solar Energy Society, particularly the Resource Assessment div. I've also kept active and up to date in solar and R.E. developments as less than a job but more than a hobby. I've also, from the '70's on been active in community pro bono work, usually of the type that tries to educate and help folks understand and improve their lives through energy conservation and more efficient ways to use (or not use) energy. My recent stint on the ARC in my HOA is probably a continuation of that effort at community involvement. 10,000+ posts here may also perhaps be attributed to some sense of maybe giving back.

            I've never been reimbursed by or been involved with companies that mfg. or installed solar equipment, but I have worked for a few companies that have what I believe to be good reputations in the engineering and manufacture of power generation and process equipment.

            As for why I have S.P. on my roof while railing about it's poor cost effectiveness relative to other equipment, and the level of half truth I see in their marketing: Biggest reason is I wanted to investigate the S.P. claims of superiority on my own. I believe I've satisfied my curiosity. I've described my efforts at investigating their equipment's performance at some length on this forum, probably ad nauseum in some opinions. I'll not repeat them here. If you're curious, start digging. They're public record. I knew S.P stuff was not cost effective long before I signed a contract. I didn't get S.P. for its for cost effectiveness. Hell, no PV is cost effective for me by my criteria. I only use about 7,000 kWh/yr. The LCOE for most any system I'd consider is still greater than the LCOE of what the POCO would supply me. Most passions about things (what some call hobbies) are not cost effective anyway. For me, the PV on my roof satisfies my curiosity and keeps me off the streets. Knowing nothing else, the knowledge of local PV pricing and vendor quality gained from my HOA/ARC experience would have shown that S.P. is not cost effective even if I didn't have other means to see it.

            Jealous or remorseful about my choice ? No. Quite the contrary. I accomplished what I set out to do - see the truth or B.S. of the S.P. claims on my own terms as best as my own engineering abilities allow me to analyze. I also learned and continue to learn a lot about residential PV that I would not know of without having made the effort. Some of which information I've shared here. Some agree with some of my spoor, some don't. Most probably either don't understand it, or care, or both, or something else. Either or any way, it matters naught to me. I'm having fun. That I do so while having the good fortune and luck to have made a buck off S.P. stock while saving some $$ in electric bills (but in so doing gaining less by not having used the funds for alternate and more productive investments rather than PV equipment) is icing on the cake.

            My guess is I've probably forgotten more about the engineering aspects of solar and renewable energy and resource assessment, as well as how to market and peddle such products (and so more easily spot he B.S. that goes with the marketing) than some others may know for quite some time to come. Maybe even you.

            Rant mode off.
            Last edited by J.P.M.; 05-20-2018, 02:23 PM.

            Comment

            • J.P.M.
              Solar Fanatic
              • Aug 2013
              • 14926

              Originally posted by Mike90250
              My feeling of the gist of this, is unless you are really tight on space, and need the extra % that SP offers, they are over priced, with lotsa technobabble in their sales pitch
              As another possible alternative to S.P. if space constrained: Consider measures and the costs from reductions in usage that will allow a reduction in the (electrical) size of the PV. Lower bills, and lower PV costs from both a smaller array and lower per Watt costs.

              Comment

              • LLB
                Junior Member
                • Aug 2015
                • 36

                Originally posted by J.P.M.
                After reading your response and finding no facts I tried to reply seriously but eventually gave in to my other side. Otherwise the only thing people would be reading is Where's the facts?
                Cell construction makes a difference, inter-connects increase reliability, diode moved out of the cell, both help with reverse bias and partial shading.
                Purity of materials matter

                LLB: I believe you are one of maybe 3 or 4 posters who have had/done posts longer than some of mine.
                Except for the work experience part of your resume I believe you have managed to repeat everyone of your fact-less opined points again, just packaged differently.

                I'll not get into a lengthy discussion of the benefits/drawbacks of S.P. with you.
                Why? Is that not what this forum is for? To have logical fact based discussions (obviously only when facts are required) to come to reasonable conclusions? Sure people can always refuse to agree at the end, but you've never even presented one bit of evidence. You seem to be proud of your pro bono work, mentioned it many times, while also saying you don't care if you get your point across. I don't see the point in spending time attempting to educate people pro bono AND not caring that you are actually not making sense to them. Maybe that's why you are having the results you are with your HOA and many here. I know if I had 10k posts under my belt I would already have created .docx files on my computer and used them in posts and then saved or pinned those posts so to easily send newbs to the info, so you wouldn't have to retype the obviously certain facts that you have now forgotten and told me to go searching for.

                Opinions and interpretations are what they are. We have both stated some of ours in a place that's purposed for opinions and information exchange. So be it.
                Correction, I have presented both opinion and published facts. You have only opined.

                I will only comment on how your interpretations of what I've done and what I may think may need correcting as they relate to my experience or qualifications. I believe that's within my purview.

                It seems that my brief re-counting of some of my community pro bono work may have led you to think that's my only experience in energy related matters.

                While I believe I'm a normally reserved and private person, I don't like confusion or being misrepresented, intentionally or otherwise, so I'd like to comment on what I believe may be some of your misinterpretations as I see them relating to me.
                Let me perhaps provide others and maybe even you a little linguistic assistance. Anything I wrote in reply to you is my "opinion" and not open to interpretation by you, but I can change my opinion. You presented and opined what you wanted, "how you came to know SP was an overpriced company via your HOA experience and dealing with AHJ". If you presented insufficiently and/or incomplete facts that is on you, but not misinterpretation on my part.


                Before I start and for the record: Formal education is not something that means a whole lot to me. I relate any such experience I may have been lucky enough to receive and build on only as clarification. FWIW, I'm wary of the abilities of folks whose first statement after their name is something like : "and I have degree in so and so". Well, so, and so what ? Do you know anything ? About the best and most savvy P.E. I ever met was a mustang who got a P.E. license the hard way : No formal education and at least 12 years of qualifying experience, that is, being in responsible charge of engineering work. P.E''s know what I'm writing about and know that drill.
                Not sure what brought on this part of your rant, strictly rhetoric imho. Perhaps some kind of preemptive strike.

                I was trained (some would say formally educated) in the 60's as a physicist. Not being able to afford further education, and finding that the job market in the field for mere baccalaureate physicists being slim, I became a peddler of industrial equipment and made decent $$ in a boring way for ~ 10 years. I got the solar bug ~ '75 while trying to learn how to stay warm in a cold climate. The curiosity I had, lucky circumstances and getting tired of the B./S. I got from other peddlers (of solar products) all seemed to coalesce at one time and place: I quit working, got more training (returned to school and parked my ass in classrooms long enough to get another tuition receipt), began a real engineering education and got a job as a mechanical engineer designing power and process equipment not unlike some of the stuff I formerly peddled, and, most importantly, learning more of how to think and see the world like an engineer sees and interprets the world. All the while keeping and developing the interest in solar and renewable energy that sparked my return to school in the first place. Along the way, as well as learning to think and see the world like an engineer, and speaking what I believed to be truth to the often B.S. from solar conmen and peddlers, I obtained a P.E. license (mechanical) and got more training (M.S.M.E.) that took about 6 years on a part time basis + 2 yrs. to write the required thesis, the subject of which was far from solar or R.E. and dealt with vibration analysis with respect to some particular aspects of the failure modes of shell and tube heat exchangers of the type and nature that would later produce the San Onofre failures. In true Peter Principle fashion, over the years, I progressed into several levels of engineering management. Last job title (which admittedly means little in the bigger scheme of things) before retirement was Director of Special Projects. I was always active in promoting my profession and was active in professional organizations such as he ASME, ASHRAE, local P.E. society chapters and others, and also the International Solar Energy Society, particularly the Resource Assessment div. I've also kept active and up to date in solar and R.E. developments as less than a job but more than a hobby. I've also, from the '70's on been active in community pro bono work, usually of the type that tries to educate and help folks understand and improve their lives through energy conservation and more efficient ways to use (or not use) energy. My recent stint on the ARC in my HOA is probably a continuation of that effort at community involvement. 10,000+ posts here may also perhaps be attributed to some sense of maybe giving back.
                I haven't seen such a healthy case of self-esteem in years, congratulations. The name Sheldon come to mind. You also have an interesting way of showing how you give back, very selectively apparently.

                I've never been reimbursed by or been involved with companies that mfg. or installed solar equipment, but I have worked for a few companies that have what I believe to be good reputations in the engineering and manufacture of power generation and process equipment.
                Sounds like your answering in a deposition.

                As for why I have S.P. on my roof while railing about it's poor cost effectiveness relative to other equipment, and the level of half truth I see in their marketing:
                You really should learn to let that anger go or focus it to do some good. EVERY industry sells half-truths! Big Pharma, Wall St., Big Ag "made with ALL natural ingredients" those things steal your quality of life AND your life. Get mad at them, even if your SP claims were true and they are not because you never presented any facts, the effects to your health and quality of life are minuscule in comparison financially and physically.

                Biggest reason is I wanted to investigate the S.P. claims of superiority on my own. I believe I've satisfied my curiosity. I've described my efforts at investigating their equipment's performance at some length on this forum, probably ad nauseum in some opinions. I'll not repeat them here. If you're curious, start digging.
                So many ways to go with this childish response of yours. I already deleted mine, but it felt good to type them out. Mentally mature people have enough composure to edit themselves.
                Never crossed your mind to make a sticky huh, shame. Shame for the ones that come after me and shame on you.
                I find it ironic with all your mentioning of pro bono work, you actually have a audience who wants to know, unlike your HOA and you don't execute, classic.
                But that's OK because I know they really doesn't exist.


                They're public record. I knew S.P stuff was not cost effective long before I signed a contract.
                Well now your just being sloppy, which is it, you wanted to investigate or you already knew. Pick a story and stick with it. I'm kind of losing interest and starting to doubt the accuracy from this point on. Since you are fond of going to school can I suggest some creative writing classes, they help with world building and story development.

                I didn't get S.P. for its for cost effectiveness. Hell, no PV is cost effective for me by my criteria. I only use about 7,000 kWh/yr. The LCOE for most any system I'd consider is still greater than the LCOE of what the POCO would supply me. Most passions about things (what some call hobbies) are not cost effective anyway. For me, the PV on my roof satisfies my curiosity and keeps me off the streets. Knowing nothing else, the knowledge of local PV pricing and vendor quality gained from my HOA/ARC experience would have shown that S.P. is not cost effective even if I didn't have other means to see it.
                Flag on the play - off topic. Can we stick to, where are the SP facts? Everyone knows solar doesn't pencil without the credit and sometimes not even then.

                Jealous or remorseful about my choice ? No. Quite the contrary. I accomplished what I set out to do - see the truth or B.S. of the S.P. claims on my own terms as best as my own engineering abilities allow me to analyze. I also learned and continue to learn a lot about residential PV that I would not know of without having made the effort. Some of which information I've shared here. Some agree with some of my spoor, some don't. Most probably either don't understand it, or care, or both, or something else. Either or any way, it matters naught to me. I'm having fun. That I do so while having the good fortune and luck to have made a buck off S.P. stock while saving some $$ in electric bills (but in so doing gaining less by not having used the funds for alternate and more productive investments rather than PV equipment) is icing on the cake.

                My guess is I've probably forgotten more about the engineering aspects of solar and renewable energy and resource assessment, as well as how to market and peddle such products (and so more easily spot he B.S. that goes with the marketing) than some others may know for quite some time to come. Maybe even you.
                And there it is, ending with a zinger, you're feeling proud right about now, am I right, up top! I get a chuckle every-time I hear someone use that line, "I've forgotten more ...",
                I haven't forgotten that there is always someone bigger, faster, smarter than I and that it serves one best to keep it in mind.
                You disappoint me and do a disservice to all who enter here by not delivering factual useful actionable knowledge. So go climb up back to your mountain on high and tell everyone that makes it to the top that the answers they are looking for they already passed by and they should search for them on the way down. (When in reality the facts aren't there)

                Rant mode off.
                We (the forum) could have had good times poking fun at SP's vivid and creative marketing verbiage, while you pontificated about where their facts where lacking, wrong or exaggerated, but you chose to take your ball and go home.
                Feel free to respond if you change your mind.

                19 SPR X21 345 / SMA 6000TL-US22

                Comment

                • solar pete
                  Administrator
                  • May 2014
                  • 1816

                  Howdy, just thought of a place where you can get some data, the desert knowledge centre in Alice Springs, Australia have been testing various panels for years.

                  I havnt looked at this for years but last time I did I found a graph where the different solar panels performance for the day were all on the same graph and it was so close that it was easy to conclude that there really aint much difference between most of them.

                  Any way here you go, some interesting reading awaits http://dkasolarcentre.com.au/historical-data/download ...knock ya selves out....

                  Comment

                  • Mike90250
                    Moderator
                    • May 2009
                    • 16020

                    and now, this tiresome thread closes.
                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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