Issues with Solar Company

[Tanya]

I'm not sure I see the rip-off here. The first 40% of the bill that is offset is probably the most cost-effective portion. If the price paid was something less than $5/W, the system is going to pay for it self eventually, probably in under 10 years based on a rough idea of what system size the price paid would buy, and what it sounds like the OP's consumption was. For the installer to mis-represent the performance of the system is bad, but that alone that doesn't mean what was sold was a bad buy.

FWIW, in SDG&E land, all that is required to have full access to consumption back to when the smart meters were installed is a single bill. I'm not sure if SCE offers the same access, but here, once you give away one copy of your bill, your energy consumption in perpetuity could be watched. That laywer sounds clueless.

I'm not sure I follow your logic (or the abbreviations) -- sorry. How could it not be a bad buy? We were told it would cover 80%, which is why we spent all that money. Now we find out it only covers 43%. And we're billed in tiers here in LA, so in the summer months there is pretty much no difference at all.

[Tanya]

It may not sound like something you want to here Tanya, but
I'd try to figure out how much will it cost you in real $$$ and the cost of your health to start the law suit and fight a fairly big company. You already know that current system covers 43% of your consumption. See if you can get a bid from a reputable company to cover the 80% that you originally wanted and compare that to potential law suit avenue, see if it's worth it. Maybe see if you can bring your consumption a little bit down so you are closer to your desired figures. Yes, bad behavior should be punished, but you will definitely lose more time and possibly miss the Net metering deadline and possible the Fed rebate...

I know what you're saying. (And you're probably right about the time and money.) But simply put, they shouldn't get away with this type of behavior. If nobody does anything about it, they'll just keep on doing it.

[J.P.M.]

I don't want this to sound like I'm kicking someone when they're down. We've all been there.

This thread may serve another useful purpose than just info and thoughts to the OP. It looks like a textbook case of what not to do and precisely how not to go about the process of buying PV with the goal of reducing an energy bill.

One perhaps somewhat uncommon difference here is that the consumer got a system that may be undersized, and the consumer thinks they got ripped off. It's usually the other way (oversized) and they don't know it (that they got screwed, probably by their own ignorance).

At this time, because there is not sufficient information available, and until necessary information becomes available, there is no way for anyone to as much as hazard a guess what the actual usage was for the pre and post install period was, nor what the system actually produced since startup, nor what a reasonable projection of estimated performance might be.

Not my money/house/system/etc., but I'd get such information and also acquire enough knowledge about how the possibilities and limitations of residential PV before I sought remedies through the court system.

My gut tells me the system is probably producing about what it should, but the OP was/is ignorant about the possibilities and limitations of residential PV, and bought a bill of goods from an incompetent and perhaps unethical vendor/peddler.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there is more to the story, but if the OP got screwed, my guess is it started with the OP's own solar ignorance. More Caveat Emptor.

In the meantime, I'd suggest anyone considering PV might be well advised to print this entire thread and put it on the bathroom mirror or daily morning review while reading "Solar Power Your Home For Dummies".

[nmikmik]

The only comment I have is I would be careful saying publicly that "Company X defrauded us". A lawyer would probably advise you to reserve argument for legal filings. Perhaps a tweak to "possibly defrauded us" or "we believe we were defrauded by". Good luck.

edit - Is there something in writing that states 80% of your usage will be replaced by the solar system?

Common sense is not so common, it is from the poster above

[Living Large]

The only comment I have is I would be careful saying publicly that "Company X defrauded us". A lawyer would probably advise you to reserve argument for legal filings. Perhaps a tweak to "possibly defrauded us" or "we believe we were defrauded by". Good luck.

edit - Is there something in writing that states 80% of your usage will be replaced by the solar system?

[Yaryman]

How big is your system?
What direction does it face?
What components were used ( panels, inverter )
Where are you located?
How much energy do you use in a year?
How much energy has the system produced?

[sensij]

I'm not sure I see the rip-off here. The first 40% of the bill that is offset is probably the most cost-effective portion. If the price paid was something less than $5/W, the system is going to pay for it self eventually, probably in under 10 years based on a rough idea of what system size the price paid would buy, and what it sounds like the OP's consumption was. For the installer to mis-represent the performance of the system is bad, but that alone that doesn't mean what was sold was a bad buy.

FWIW, in SDG&E land, all that is required to have full access to consumption back to when the smart meters were installed is a single bill. I'm not sure if SCE offers the same access, but here, once you give away one copy of your bill, your energy consumption in perpetuity could be watched. That laywer sounds clueless.

[nmikmik]

Thanks, NorCalX. Yes, that's the exact same advise the lawyer gave us and what we are currently in the process of doing. And, yes, the problem with lawsuits is that they're not cheap. That's why we're also in touch with consumer advocacy groups. We're lucky that both my husband and I are making decent money. I do feel sorry for the people these guys are undoubtedly ripping off every single day and who can't afford to fight back.

It may not sound like something you want to here Tanya, but
I'd try to figure out how much will it cost you in real $$$ and the cost of your health to start the law suit and fight a fairly big company. You already know that current system covers 43% of your consumption. See if you can get a bid from a reputable company to cover the 80% that you originally wanted and compare that to potential law suit avenue, see if it's worth it. Maybe see if you can bring your consumption a little bit down so you are closer to your desired figures. Yes, bad behavior should be punished, but you will definitely lose more time and possibly miss the Net metering deadline and possible the Fed rebate...

[Tanya]

You probably already know this but there is no simple solution.

You have a contract dispute between what you expected and what you received.

You are in law suit territory (hopefully the lawyer explained it to you)

Hunt down every written document related to the contract you signed.

Hunt down all communications with sales person (via email i hope).

It will not be cheap or easy. One of the realities of the legal area is a financial entry barrier.

Thanks, NorCalX. Yes, that's the exact same advise the lawyer gave us and what we are currently in the process of doing. And, yes, the problem with lawsuits is that they're not cheap. That's why we're also in touch with consumer advocacy groups. We're lucky that both my husband and I are making decent money. I do feel sorry for the people these guys are undoubtedly ripping off every single day and who can't afford to fight back.

[NorCalX]

You probably already know this but there is no simple solution.

You have a contract dispute between what you expected and what you received.

You are in law suit territory (hopefully the lawyer explained it to you)

Hunt down every written document related to the contract you signed.

Hunt down all communications with sales person (via email i hope).

It will not be cheap or easy. One of the realities of the legal area is a financial entry barrier.

[Tanya]

Sunking, the system was installed over a year ago. Fall of 2014.

[Sunking]

Tony is this system was installed in the last couple of months, you will not get your monthly average because the days are getting shorter every day. I am not saying something is wrong or not. Nor am I saying you are or are not a victim of fraud or not. All I am saying is you may not understand fully how the system works. Summer months you should generate excess energy to be credited and used during winter months. Grid connected systems are designed based on a calendar year average.

[Tanya]

Thanks, solar dreamer. Yes, that's the company. No, we were stupid enough to believe the salesman when he said it would cover 80%. Great idea about the local TV station. Thanks!

[solardreamer]

I was wondering if anybody had any suggestions. Our situation is such: We've been victims of the fraudulent sales practices of Petersen Dean Roofing and Solar. The salesman who sold us our solar system completely lied to us and told us that it would cover 80% of our energy needs. We spent $13,000 on that system only to find out it only covers 43% of our energy needs. So we went back to the company -- their response was that we are welcome to spend another 12K to upgrade the system. We're contemplating taking them to court. Has anyone else had a similar experience? What happened? Thanks!

I assume that's the Petersen Dean company in the East Bay area. They are relatively big company but seem to have significant number of bad reviews and I avoided them when I was looking for solar installers. Do you have guarantee or estimate of 80% energy usage coverage in writing? A good company should have given you a report with solar system size and production estimate after they analyze your roof orientation and shading. You may also want to consider taking your case to a local TV station that has a consumer advocacy program.

[Tanya]

Thanks for the replies. We are in Los Angeles. The system was installed in the fall of 2014, shortly after the salesman was at our house. We just talked to a lawyer, who told us it should have raised a red flag that the salesman didn't ask for a year's worth of utility bills, instead he only wanted to see our most recent utility bill. Anyway, after we had the system installed, we were waiting for our bill to go down... and it didn't. We went back to the company and they said we need to get in touch with the city, because often they simply don't calculate it correctly. We did that. Someone even came out and checked everything. We were told it was working fine. Then we were waiting for our bill to go down... it didn't. We went back to the city a couple of times. Finally, we got the city to contrast our usage from this year with our usage from last year (prior to the installation) and they told us that the system is only covering 43% of our energy needs (as opposed to the 80% the salesman told us it would). So we went back to Petersen Dean and then they asked us to see 12-months worth of energy bills and told us that they can upgrade us to the system that would actually cover 80% for 12K. Yes, we got hosed. And I wish we would have come to a forum like this before so we would have known what questions to ask.