Issues with Solar Company

[Tanya]

Update!

So, here is an update: The company just offered to refund us! Yippeee! If we go down the solar panel road again -- which we really want to -- can anyone give us a bullet point list of things they'd suggest we watch out for? That would be much appreciated. Thanks to everyone for their advice and input.

[Living Large]

But is this really the same thing as buying a used car? (Where everybody assumes they're being ripped off and don't believe a word the salesman says anyway.) Or is this more akin to hiring a construction company -- where you assume they know what they're talking about? I know, I know... largely philosophical discussion... I'm just really pissed off.

I was not trying to obfuscate the discussion, or say buying a used car and new solar system are the same. My point was what is in writing, which we still don't know. What is in writing that you feel can be used to substantiate that you were defrauded or "ripped off"? You have a system that is working. What were you quoted on paper, and how does it differ from what you received? You posted some details, but not enough. You seem to be hanging your hat on the verbal comment of the salesperson so far.

I would counter that hiring a construction company and a company that provides equipment that will allow you to generate energy from the sun are fairly different.

Regarding your statement that you assumed they would "know what they are talking about" - here is one - what about buying a dog from a dog breeder? Far too many people assume that a dog breeder knows what they are doing and are reputable. Then they pay 3x what is average for something deemed to be rare, and get a dog with a birth defect or poor temperament, often with bills that exceed the cost of the dog, and feel like they were ripped off. Many of them were ripped off by people who knew they were out to defraud others. I bought a dog from a breeder after doing a lot of research, and finding a breeder whom I trusted after 3 hours of discussion. We're 6 years in with a perfectly healthy dog.

There are bad actors in just about every field. Let's say this guy did represent the 80% offset. What is on paper that supports that? I don't yet see that this company ripped you off or defrauded you, but that may have happened.

edit You appear to have located a flak jacket or found some TSIAB. Excellent.

[Raul]

The system says MAX 125 AMPS. According to the LADWP our yearly energy needs are 8927 kWh. But the system only produces 3789 kWh.

That's a start ; so your system is producing 3789kwh per year. What the size of the installed system and what's the estimated yearly production for said system on paper from your installer?
Have patience , there are very knolegeable people in here and they will help you .

[NorCalX]

The system says MAX 125 AMPS. According to the LADWP our yearly energy needs are 8927 kWh. But the system only produces 3789 kWh.

Your answer is very revealing but in a bad way.

125 amps is not the system size we need.

You should have some type of documentation on your product or paperwork documenting system (maybe stuff you sent to power company)

Usually says the DC STIC rating

Or you could tell us the number of panels and type (for example 27 solar world 280s is what i am looking at. Results in 7.56kw system and ideally produces the 12000kw annually that we are aiming for)

[cebury]

I stated our specs before. So clearly the answer is yes. But you do bring up a good point -- can one equate buying a solar system with buying a used car? The guy who came to our house presented himself as an expert. Looked at our utility bill, showed us system specs and told us this would be the system for us. Now, you could argue that we were naive... and we probably were (not a mistake we'll make again). But is this really the same thing as buying a used car? (Where everybody assumes they're being ripped off and don't believe a word the salesman says anyway.) Or is this more akin to hiring a construction company -- where you assume they know what they're talking about? I know, I know... largely philosophical discussion... I'm just really pissed off.

You could post your proposal online, with identity details blacked out. My Peterson dean proposal had all the usual spec info including estimated kwh offset, but mine was an online+phone estimate. Posting that one document will provide 90% of the factual details in your case, excluding of course verbal communication.

For the record, I went with a different installer.

[Tanya]

We don't know what behavior they exhibited, because we don't have anywhere near sufficient facts. Those will be needed if you ever get into court, where your statement that "we were defrauded" will have to be proved. Again, I would be very very careful. The first step is to find out if you were really defrauded - you may have been - but you haven't proven it here. A salesman's alleged verbal statement is not proof.

I'm thinking of a used car I was looking at, where the clutch was in trouble and the salesman said "oh, that is of no concern because when you buy that will be fixed." If I had entered a contract to buy that car, I certainly would have gotten something in writing about the clutch.

If no further facts are forthcoming, I would consider carefully stating that this company "ripped you off" or "defrauded" you. Them's lawsuit words. If they actually defrauded you, then you don't have much to worry about, assuming you are willing to pay to defend possible frivolous litigation. Did they?

I stated our specs before. So clearly the answer is yes. But you do bring up a good point -- can one equate buying a solar system with buying a used car? The guy who came to our house presented himself as an expert. Looked at our utility bill, showed us system specs and told us this would be the system for us. Now, you could argue that we were naive... and we probably were (not a mistake we'll make again). But is this really the same thing as buying a used car? (Where everybody assumes they're being ripped off and don't believe a word the salesman says anyway.) Or is this more akin to hiring a construction company -- where you assume they know what they're talking about? I know, I know... largely philosophical discussion... I'm just really pissed off.

[Living Large]

Thanks for the insult. You clearly have a problem.

You need to have some Thick Skin in a Bottle overnighted to you. Same day delivery would be good, but this is a holiday. Correct me if I am wrong, but the person here with the problem is you. We don't know exactly yet what the solution is. You asked in your first post "has anyone had this happen to them, we are considering taking them to court."

There are people here that can help you get to the bottom of your issue, if you hang in there and provide them with all the details needed. In that process, you will find out if you have recourse a lot faster than with an attorney, and it will be free (less the cost of the TSIAB).

[Living Large]

I know what you're saying. (And you're probably right about the time and money.) But simply put, they shouldn't get away with this type of behavior. If nobody does anything about it, they'll just keep on doing it.

We don't know what behavior they exhibited, because we don't have anywhere near sufficient facts. Those will be needed if you ever get into court, where your statement that "we were defrauded" will have to be proved. Again, I would be very very careful. The first step is to find out if you were really defrauded - you may have been - but you haven't proven it here. A salesman's alleged verbal statement is not proof.

I'm thinking of a used car I was looking at, where the clutch was in trouble and the salesman said "oh, that is of no concern because when you buy that will be fixed." If I had entered a contract to buy that car, I certainly would have gotten something in writing about the clutch.

If no further facts are forthcoming, I would consider carefully stating that this company "ripped you off" or "defrauded" you. Them's lawsuit words. If they actually defrauded you, then you don't have much to worry about, assuming you are willing to pay to defend possible frivolous litigation. Did they?

[Tanya]

I would see the red flag on you -- Either ignorance or very smart to find a quick buck via lawsuit.
First, I assume you know how much you use per year.
Second, during the course of solar purchase, there are multiple places you will learn about how much the system generate. Contract will tell it. PTO application will have a section for the calculation. Or you should google it to see how much the solar system generates. For example, when you buy a car, if you sale man say the car run 100 miles/gallon, you accept or google it?

With the 2 above points, you should know percentage that the system could cover a long time ago (since you have the system 1 year ago).

Thanks for the insult. You clearly have a problem.

[Tanya]

Playing devil's advocate here

Their status as a bad guy depends on what the contract says they sold you. Sales person exaggerations prior to contract usually don't matter

If the contract says a system with X size will offset 80% of your annual usage (and indicated annual usage and expected production) you have some hope.

From what you have indicated you don't have that.


That leads us into ethical business practices and consumer advocacy. What proof do we have of what they "said" you were getting?

Maybe they meant 80% based on that single month they reviewed?

We don't have enough info and only 1 party is available to give their answers.


All we know is you bought a system of unspecified size for 13k expecting 80% offset.

How big is your system? (4kw dc stic?)
What were you expecting it to produce and why (10,000kw/year?)

The system says MAX 125 AMPS. According to the LADWP our yearly energy needs are 8927 kWh. But the system only produces 3789 kWh.

[solarz]

I would see the red flag on you -- Either ignorance or very smart to find a quick buck via lawsuit.
First, I assume you know how much you use per year.
Second, during the course of solar purchase, there are multiple places you will learn about how much the system generate. Contract will tell it. PTO application will have a section for the calculation. Or you should google it to see how much the solar system generates. For example, when you buy a car, if you sale man say the car run 100 miles/gallon, you accept or google it?

With the 2 above points, you should know percentage that the system could cover a long time ago (since you have the system 1 year ago).

[NorCalX]

I'm not sure I follow your logic (or the abbreviations) -- sorry. How could it not be a bad buy? We were told it would cover 80%, which is why we spent all that money. Now we find out it only covers 43%. And we're billed in tiers here in LA, so in the summer months there is pretty much no difference at all.

Playing devil's advocate here

Their status as a bad guy depends on what the contract says they sold you. Sales person exaggerations prior to contract usually don't matter

If the contract says a system with X size will offset 80% of your annual usage (and indicated annual usage and expected production) you have some hope.

From what you have indicated you don't have that.


That leads us into ethical business practices and consumer advocacy. What proof do we have of what they "said" you were getting?

Maybe they meant 80% based on that single month they reviewed?

We don't have enough info and only 1 party is available to give their answers.


All we know is you bought a system of unspecified size for 13k expecting 80% offset.

How big is your system? (4kw dc stic?)
What were you expecting it to produce and why (10,000kw/year?)

[Willy T]

Solar production for year to year is hard to figure. It's about averages over time. It's not unusual to have a + 20 % year followed by a - 20 % year, ( 40% swing ) unless your in a location that has very constant weather. My system will do 10,000 kwh one year and 12,000 the next. There is some weird weather out there, hard to know if it's production or usage.

[ButchDeal]

I'm not sure I follow your logic (or the abbreviations) -- sorry. How could it not be a bad buy? We were told it would cover 80%, which is why we spent all that money. Now we find out it only covers 43%. And we're billed in tiers here in LA, so in the summer months there is pretty much no difference at all.

Does the contract say 80% of usage or 80% of bill? Can you post average consumption from 12 months before installation and average consumption & generation from 12 months after install?
Specs on the system would be nice as well.

[Tanya]

I don't want this to sound like I'm kicking someone when they're down. We've all been there.

This thread may serve another useful purpose than just info and thoughts to the OP. It looks like a textbook case of what not to do and precisely how not to go about the process of buying PV with the goal of reducing an energy bill.

One perhaps somewhat uncommon difference here is that the consumer got a system that may be undersized, and the consumer thinks they got ripped off. It's usually the other way (oversized) and they don't know it (that they got screwed, probably by their own ignorance).

At this time, because there is not sufficient information available, and until necessary information becomes available, there is no way for anyone to as much as hazard a guess what the actual usage was for the pre and post install period was, nor what the system actually produced since startup, nor what a reasonable projection of estimated performance might be.

Not my money/house/system/etc., but I'd get such information and also acquire enough knowledge about how the possibilities and limitations of residential PV before I sought remedies through the court system.

My gut tells me the system is probably producing about what it should, but the OP was/is ignorant about the possibilities and limitations of residential PV, and bought a bill of goods from an incompetent and perhaps unethical vendor/peddler.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there is more to the story, but if the OP got screwed, my guess is it started with the OP's own solar ignorance. More Caveat Emptor.

In the meantime, I'd suggest anyone considering PV might be well advised to print this entire thread and put it on the bathroom mirror or daily morning review while reading "Solar Power Your Home For Dummies".

Well, then hopefully our experience serves others not to make the same mistake. Above you were talking about limitations of a system and what to watch out for. Would you care to elaborate?