X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • zazaag
    Junior Member
    • Jul 2015
    • 7

    #31
    Analysis of impact of new 2 tier Pg&E system on solar

    Originally posted by sparkle
    has PGE come out with new pricing ?
    Hi All,

    NOTE that I have attached the proposed new PG&E rates to this comment for your viewing pleasure.

    In a nutshell, at present time, heavy electricity users (ie, East Bay with A/C) are subsidizing Peninsula and SF city folk that have a cooler climate and lower kWh usage. PG&E is proposing these changes so that lower level electricity consumers pay more and higher level consumers pay less. Ostensibly, this is for fairness sake and is supposed to be revenue neutral. The current high tiers prices are higher than the marginal cost of producing those last kWhs and the current lower tier prices aren't high enough to cover the marginal production costs. The normative argument can go either way, depending on your outlook.

    That being said, I found out about this new tier structure the evening after I signed my 5.3kW solar contract in Pleasanton. Of course NO solar companies told me anything about it. When I called back some of the companies (that had quoted me) if they knew about it, some did and some did not. None at that time (3 1/2 weeks ago) knew the impact on the solar investment decision.

    I had 3 days to cancel my contract so I dove in deep and did my own calculations. I read through the PUC docs as well as PG&E's proposed transition to a two tier system (a 4-5 year transition) which included dates and prices.

    I did a detailed analysis of my kWh consumption under the proposed new tiers based on my previous year of data. While the final PG&E prices were not set when I did my analysis, I concluded that at my electricity usage level (about 9000kWh/hr), my annual electricity bill would drop by 8% give or take (in graded steps) over the next 5 years. This increased my simple solar payback from 7.1 to 7.8 years. My analysis is not perfect but it is probably not to far off each. Adding an extra half a year or year to my payback was insignificant enough that I didn't back out of the contract and my solar is getting installed this Wednesday!

    I consider solar to be green (a little less C02 for next generations to suffer with), a good investment (if I plow back all of my utility savings into an S&P index fund), in 20 years I will have 2.3X the money that I would have had if I had left my original CAPEX (capital expenditure) in the same index fund, and a nice form of portfolio diversification.

    Of course, if PG&E decides to radically lower its prices, then I made a bad decision but I think that is about as likely as time starting to flow backwards.
    Attached Files

    Comment

    • J.P.M.
      Solar Fanatic
      • Aug 2013
      • 15023

      #32
      Originally posted by zazaag
      Hi All,

      NOTE that I have attached the proposed new PG&E rates to this comment for your viewing pleasure.

      In a nutshell, at present time, heavy electricity users (ie, East Bay with A/C) are subsidizing Peninsula and SF city folk that have a cooler climate and lower kWh usage. PG&E is proposing these changes so that lower level electricity consumers pay more and higher level consumers pay less. Ostensibly, this is for fairness sake and is supposed to be revenue neutral. The current high tiers prices are higher than the marginal cost of producing those last kWhs and the current lower tier prices aren't high enough to cover the marginal production costs. The normative argument can go either way, depending on your outlook.

      That being said, I found out about this new tier structure the evening after I signed my 5.3kW solar contract in Pleasanton. Of course NO solar companies told me anything about it. When I called back some of the companies (that had quoted me) if they knew about it, some did and some did not. None at that time (3 1/2 weeks ago) knew the impact on the solar investment decision.

      I had 3 days to cancel my contract so I dove in deep and did my own calculations. I read through the PUC docs as well as PG&E's proposed transition to a two tier system (a 4-5 year transition) which included dates and prices.

      I did a detailed analysis of my kWh consumption under the proposed new tiers based on my previous year of data. While the final PG&E prices were not set when I did my analysis, I concluded that at my electricity usage level (about 9000kWh/hr), my annual electricity bill would drop by 8% give or take (in graded steps) over the next 5 years. This increased my simple solar payback from 7.1 to 7.8 years. My analysis is not perfect but it is probably not to far off each. Adding an extra half a year or year to my payback was insignificant enough that I didn't back out of the contract and my solar is getting installed this Wednesday!

      I consider solar to be green (a little less C02 for next generations to suffer with), a good investment (if I plow back all of my utility savings into an S&P index fund), in 20 years I will have 2.3X the money that I would have had if I had left my original CAPEX (capital expenditure) in the same index fund, and a nice form of portfolio diversification.

      Of course, if PG&E decides to radically lower its prices, then I made a bad decision but I think that is about as likely as time starting to flow backwards.
      FWIW, I congratulate you on doing the hard work. I appreciate what a PITA it can be and still be a bit of a dart throw. I'd also note that you guesstimate a bill decrease as may well happen to many users. Whether the estimates you've done actually work out or not, IMO, nicely done.

      Comment

      • paul65k
        Solar Fanatic
        • Aug 2015
        • 116

        #33
        Originally posted by zazaag
        Hi All,NOTE that I have attached the proposed new PG&E rates to this comment for your viewing pleasure. In a nutshell, at present time, heavy electricity users (ie, East Bay with A/C) are subsidizing Peninsula and SF city folk that have a cooler climate and lower kWh usage. PG&E is proposing these changes so that lower level electricity consumers pay more and higher level consumers pay less. Ostensibly, this is for fairness sake and is supposed to be revenue neutral. The current high tiers prices are higher than the marginal cost of producing those last kWhs and the current lower tier prices aren't high enough to cover the marginal production costs. The normative argument can go either way, depending on your outlook. That being said, I found out about this new tier structure the evening after I signed my 5.3kW solar contract in Pleasanton. Of course NO solar companies told me anything about it. When I called back some of the companies (that had quoted me) if they knew about it, some did and some did not. None at that time (3 1/2 weeks ago) knew the impact on the solar investment decision. I had 3 days to cancel my contract so I dove in deep and did my own calculations. I read through the PUC docs as well as PG&E's proposed transition to a two tier system (a 4-5 year transition) which included dates and prices. I did a detailed analysis of my kWh consumption under the proposed new tiers based on my previous year of data. While the final PG&E prices were not set when I did my analysis, I concluded that at my electricity usage level (about 9000kWh/hr), my annual electricity bill would drop by 8% give or take (in graded steps) over the next 5 years. This increased my simple solar payback from 7.1 to 7.8 years. My analysis is not perfect but it is probably not to far off each. Adding an extra half a year or year to my payback was insignificant enough that I didn't back out of the contract and my solar is getting installed this Wednesday! I consider solar to be green (a little less C02 for next generations to suffer with), a good investment (if I plow back all of my utility savings into an S&P index fund), in 20 years I will have 2.3X the money that I would have had if I had left my original CAPEX (capital expenditure) in the same index fund, and a nice form of portfolio diversification. Of course, if PG&E decides to radically lower its prices, then I made a bad decision but I think that is about as likely as time starting to flow backwards.
        That is great work....kudos for actually taking the time to do the research necessary to do the calculations and making an informed decision....Well Done.

        PS - Lemme guess....................You're an engineer right???

        Comment

        • zazaag
          Junior Member
          • Jul 2015
          • 7

          #34
          Originally posted by paul65k
          That is great work....kudos for actually taking the time to do the research necessary to do the calculations and making an informed decision....Well Done.

          PS - Lemme guess....................You're an engineer right???
          I am sort of an engineer. I don't like going into situations with my eyes closed. Plus, I wanted to confirm that I had no reason to have buyer's remorse. I am so excited about solar that I feel like I am 10 years old again. I have waited a long time to do this.

          Thanks for the feedback.

          Comment

          • insaneoctane
            Solar Fanatic
            • May 2012
            • 158

            #35
            Originally posted by zazaag
            I am sort of an engineer. I don't like going into situations with my eyes closed. Plus, I wanted to confirm that I had no reason to have buyer's remorse. I am so excited about solar that I feel like I am 10 years old again. I have waited a long time to do this.

            Thanks for the feedback.
            Great work. It's nice to see people doing their homework these days. By the way, I would argue that all of your potential installers knew as much as you discovered. You are just one person trying to understand the financial impact to your single install... These changes impact their business and well being. If they don't know, it doesn't say much for their ability to run and understand their business!

            Comment

            • J.P.M.
              Solar Fanatic
              • Aug 2013
              • 15023

              #36
              Originally posted by insaneoctane
              great work. It's nice to see people doing their homework these days. By the way, i would argue that all of your potential installers knew as much as you discovered. You are just one person trying to understand the financial impact to your single install... These changes impact their business and well being. If they don't know, it doesn't say much for their ability to run and understand their business!
              fwiw, +1.

              Comment

              • elbowglue
                Junior Member
                • Sep 2015
                • 5

                #37
                Nice job with the PDF!!

                Comment

                • sparkle
                  Member
                  • Jun 2015
                  • 38

                  #38
                  will same rate apply to E6 and EV plans ?

                  Comment

                  • sensij
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 5074

                    #39
                    Originally posted by sparkle
                    will same rate apply to E6 and EV plans ?
                    No. The TOU plans are on a different trajectory, and it isn't clear yet what the future will be for them. E-6 will probably be retired soon, with a new TOU plan in its place.
                    CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                    Comment

                    • elbowglue
                      Junior Member
                      • Sep 2015
                      • 5

                      #40
                      Would you guys recommend changing to E6 right now? I'm currently on E1, have typical usage in the day, am going to be getting solar panels in the next few months ( south facing) perhaps I should change into E6 to get grandfathered into this plan before it goes away?

                      Looks like from what I read the E6 plan will still be open to enter into until the end of the year, but may be grandfathered in but phased out over 5 years..

                      Comment

                      • sensij
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 5074

                        #41
                        Yes, E-6 will be be closed to new customers at the end of the year, and grandfathered for at least 5. More information here:
                        If you are a homeowner who is about to put a solar panel system on your home or you are a newbie to the solar market, get started here! A non-technical forum to help you understand the in's and out's of solar.


                        As for whether or not you should switch... you can use the tool on their website to see how your existing usage patterns would look under the different plans. If you are anticipating solar generation will make E-6 more attractive, it say go for it. SCE and SDG&E have bill protection that reverts you back to the basic plan if TOU doesn't work out in your favor, but I can't find something similar for PG&E. That bill protection comes with a restriction on the number of times you can change plans, but I don't see a restriction like that for PG&E either. Might be worth a call to them to find out how it would work if TOU turns out not to be good.
                        CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                        Comment

                        • sensij
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 5074

                          #42
                          I haven't been following PG&E plans too closely, but in the rate reform decision there is information on the successor to E-6, called E-TOU.

                          E-TOU.GIF

                          It probably won't be quite as good as E-6, but still better than E-1 if TOU is right for you. In other PG&E rate design proceedings, there may be updates to this by now
                          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                          Comment

                          • elbowglue
                            Junior Member
                            • Sep 2015
                            • 5

                            #43
                            Originally posted by sensij
                            I haven't been following PG&E plans too closely, but in the rate reform decision there is information on the successor to E-6, called E-TOU.

                            [ATTACH=CONFIG]7772[/ATTACH]

                            It probably won't be quite as good as E-6, but still better than E-1 if TOU is right for you. In other PG&E rate design proceedings, there may be updates to this by now
                            Thanks for the information Sensi!

                            Hm the tool on PGE states my estimated yearly electric on E1 is $3415, and on E6 it would be $3600. But solar production would likely be present into the summer hours of 1-7... Not that much in winter from 5-8..

                            Comment

                            • sensij
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 5074

                              #44
                              Originally posted by elbowglue
                              Thanks for the information Sensi!

                              Hm the tool on PGE states my estimated yearly electric on E1 is $3415, and on E6 it would be $3600. But solar production would likely be present into the summer hours of 1-7... Not that much in winter from 5-8..
                              Look at it this way... will solar revenue under E-6 be at least $200 more than the revenue under E-1? I think the answer to that is yes, and switching would be in your favor.
                              CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                              Comment

                              • justthinking
                                Junior Member
                                • Aug 2015
                                • 25

                                #45
                                I work from home and have a few dedicated server running 24/7, so during hot summer days, we would turn on AC from like noon to 8pm

                                According to PG&E tool, I will pay about the same under either E1 or E6..

                                I am thinking about invest in the tesla powerwall so I can use power from battery during peak hours and switch to E6

                                Does this make sense to you guys?

                                Comment

                                Working...