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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 15022

    #31
    Originally posted by rwb1921
    Interesting, shows not much difference. SDGE has gone up more I think and is higher than that now. These are our current rates - 1-$0.17 2-$0.20 3-$0.37 4-$0.39
    On SDG & E residential tiered rates: Like most things, it's more complicated than a one line explanation, made more complicated by the fact that most folks are ignorant about how to calc a bill.

    Several years ago I got sick of listening to/reading peddler hype about rates increasing a bazillion % per year, but had no hard #'s. Soooo, I badgered SDG & E (back then, apparently no one thought about asking for prior year tariff sheets), and after some persistence, I got all the prior residential tiered rate tariff sheets back to 1995. Most of that is now on line. (1X/awhile I wonder if making a PITA of my self helped that access, but no matter.)

    Anyway, I spreadsheeted the same methodology I use to calc current SDG & E bills, adjusting for changes not only in rates, but also a few tier number adjustments - for example, there were 5 for a while, and other things like DWR bond rates, etc. I also, cheated a little bit by using rates in effect as of 01/01 of each year and considering those rates effective for 12 months. If I had not done so, I'd probably not be done yet. The way I do it, I plug in 12 months of actual or supposed usage, use the same billing schedule each time - the one "closest" to the 1st day of the month, and calc a bill for, say, 2003 using those 12 months of usage. Then, do that for each year keeping the usage amount and pattern constant. Then, list each consecutive year's bill and use those annual totals to calc how much the cost of a set amount of usage has changed over the years. I've limited most of my analysis to 12 years, since that's my # of years for Present Worth Analyses and the time I feel is a reasonable # given prior local residential electricity price trends that skewed reality, and also, a reasonable time span for progress to reflect R.E. advances/changes in the past.

    Some observations:

    1.) Rates go up a lot some years and also go down a lot some years.

    2.) The biggest surprise I had was that the annual rate increase for residential users of SDG & E power in any year varies as a function of the amount of product used.

    For example:

    Since 2003, residences using 6,000 kWh/yr. have seen a compounded average annual increase in the cost of electricity of about 2.75% per year.
    The biggest annual increase was about 13.9% in 2014. The lowest annual increase was -4.9% in 2005 (rates went down). Two years, 2005 and 2008, had negative increases (rates went down).

    Since 2003 residences using 12,000 kWh/yr. have seen a compounded average annual increase of about 5.1% per year.
    The biggest annual increase was about 29.3% in 2003. The lowest annual increase was about -8.9% in 2008. 4 years, 2005, 2008, 2011 and 2012 had negative increases.

    Since 2003, residences using 18,000 kWh/yr. have seen a compounded average annual increase of about 5.9% per year.
    The biggest annual increase was about 39.8% in 2009. The lowest annual increase was about -11.9% in 2008. 4 years, 2005,2008, 2011 and 2012 had negative increases. Some of that 2009 increase was correcting the 2008 decrease.



    So, statistics don't lie, statisticians do. So do peddlers who may, for example say something like: "You know, Mr. Portzenbee, rates go up all the time - one year almost 40% !!! No wonder your bills are through the roof. I'd suspect most peddlers are clueless about actual rate increases and do little more than parrot what they hear or are told to babble.

    Point is: rates change, and prior rate changes have been quite choppy one year to the next. Single year comparisons are misleading and peddlers use ignorance of such things to their advantage.

    Caveat Emptor.

    The rates are based on equal monthly usages of 500, 1000 and 1,500 kWh/month. That usage is not meant to imply typical use patterns. The examples given are for illustrative purposes only to show how annual rate increases change as
    f(usage). Rates are for inland climate zone and per what is now schedule "DR" or as appropriate for residential users for the applicable year. Some variation will be seen for other climate zones and billing schedules - again this is to illustrate a point.

    3.) The past is not the future. AB 327 will change the way bills are configured making all of the above an anachronism. It may be that once tiers are flattened a fair amount and IF future rate increases are indexed to some general inflation index, things will smooth out. T.O.U. will also have an impact as that billing method, which is not widely used at this time becomes more common.

    Comment

    • russ
      Solar Fanatic
      • Jul 2009
      • 10360

      #32
      Originally posted by davelittle
      Thanks Bob. I read some of the thread on your installation. My house is 3,000 feet and I wish I knew where the power is going. We have a hot tub, a big fridge, a freezer, another fridge in the garage. 2 HVAC systems and it's a drafty old ranch house with 12 foot ceilings. And a 700 foot guest house. But I still think we pay way too much. I've had electricians out and they can't figure it out either, so at least I don't feel like a total idiot (most of the time).
      Through the old and no longer so effective insulation and leaky enclosure plus you have a multitude of users.
      [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

      Comment

      • inetdog
        Super Moderator
        • May 2012
        • 9909

        #33
        Originally posted by davelittle
        Thanks Bob. I read some of the thread on your installation. My house is 3,000 feet and I wish I knew where the power is going. We have a hot tub, a big fridge, a freezer, another fridge in the garage. 2 HVAC systems and it's a drafty old ranch house with 12 foot ceilings. And a 700 foot guest house. But I still think we pay way too much. I've had electricians out and they can't figure it out either, so at least I don't feel like a total idiot (most of the time).
        One thing you can do (perhaps on your own?) is get a clamp-on AC ammeter and look for current in branch circuits that should not be drawing power based on the loads that you are aware of.
        If you have a smart meter and can access the 15 minute power totals for a 24 hour period you can get an idea of whether there is some constant background load or just some intermittent high power loads.
        SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

        Comment

        • J.P.M.
          Solar Fanatic
          • Aug 2013
          • 15022

          #34
          Originally posted by davelittle
          Thanks Bob. I read some of the thread on your installation. My house is 3,000 feet and I wish I knew where the power is going. We have a hot tub, a big fridge, a freezer, another fridge in the garage. 2 HVAC systems and it's a drafty old ranch house with 12 foot ceilings. And a 700 foot guest house. But I still think we pay way too much. I've had electricians out and they can't figure it out either, so at least I don't feel like a total idiot (most of the time).
          Dave: From what you just described, your wish is granted. The power you use is going to all the stuff you described. Not a judgment, just reality - you have a very energy intensive lifestyle in a house that's a poster child as a candidate for an energy audit and what sounds like some serious conservation upgrades. I'd spend the money on conservation retrofits recommended by the audit long before solar. Much more cost effective and resulting solar will be smaller (read less expensive).

          Comment

          • Alisobob
            Banned
            • Sep 2014
            • 605

            #35
            I spoke with Dave on the phone, told him the exact same thing.

            He's looking into it.

            Comment

            • Spektre
              Member
              • May 2015
              • 82

              #36
              Surprised no one is slamming SC for their quotes

              I, like the OP, got a quote from SC. The PDF from the very pleasant salesman that came to my house had all the details in it.

              Their 'MyPower' finance arrangement (which they claim is not a PPA), not their lease, does contain an annual payment increase of 2.9% and their comparison is for an estimated 3.9% annual rate increase from the utility. They wanted $61K before incentives for a 13.5kW (80%) system. So, not only are they way overpriced on their install, they're also increasing your cost every year for 30 years! Oh, but you'll own the system once it's mostly worthless...

              The 'savings' graph they provided was my first clue. I thought - "That's odd - why is my fixed payment cost with solar increasing annually?"

              After I digested this, I started searching for people posting about what a load of BS their pitch is, but found nothing. Needless to say, I won't be going with Solar City.
              Attached Files

              Comment

              • russ
                Solar Fanatic
                • Jul 2009
                • 10360

                #37
                Originally posted by Spektre
                After I digested this, I started searching for people posting about what a load of BS their pitch is, but found nothing. Needless to say, I won't be going with Solar City.
                Glad you saw through the SC BS - there are good companies leasing and selling out there - good luck!
                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                Comment

                • J.P.M.
                  Solar Fanatic
                  • Aug 2013
                  • 15022

                  #38
                  Originally posted by Spektre
                  I, like the OP, got a quote from SC. The PDF from the very pleasant salesman that came to my house had all the details in it.

                  Their 'MyPower' finance arrangement (which they claim is not a PPA), not their lease, does contain an annual payment increase of 2.9% and their comparison is for an estimated 3.9% annual rate increase from the utility. They wanted $61K before incentives for a 13.5kW (80%) system. So, not only are they way overpriced on their install, they're also increasing your cost every year for 30 years! Oh, but you'll own the system once it's mostly worthless...

                  The 'savings' graph they provided was my first clue. I thought - "That's odd - why is my fixed payment cost with solar increasing annually?"

                  After I digested this, I started searching for people posting about what a load of BS their pitch is, but found nothing. Needless to say, I won't be going with Solar City.
                  Many folks agree with you. Some do not. I've seen a lot of SolarCity leases and have reviewed a lot of SolarCity drawings,information and work. I'm impressed with none of it, but opinions vary.

                  Comment

                  • solarix
                    Super Moderator
                    • Apr 2015
                    • 1415

                    #39
                    In my area, we're are getting slaughtered in sales by SC. Despite their high prices and cheap quality, people seem to really go for the big company line. Being endorsed and promoted by the local big-box store helps a lot I'm sure. The leasing companies are all playing the same game though. Jack the retail price up just as far as the IRS allows to get the maximum tax credit, then pass that along to the customer in lower monthly payments to get below what they are currently paying the utility. The "fixed" monthly payment just means the payments are determined and set in advance - not that they are the same throughout the term. If you want all payments the same, that means the initial payments are higher and blows the savings advantage.
                    Bottom line is if you can afford to buy (or get a loan for) your solar system and use the tax credits yourself, you will be way better off than a lease. The maintenance and repair costs on solar are minimal - why shell out for sure to the leasing company for that? Leases are for someone who really wants to "go solar" but can't afford it and doesn't have any tax liability either.
                    BSEE, R11, NABCEP, Chevy BoltEV, >3000kW installed

                    Comment

                    • Stopsignhank1
                      Junior Member
                      • May 2015
                      • 12

                      #40
                      Someone at my work is going through solarcity and it getting a smaller system than mine and paying about $10K more than me. But he is stoked because he can pay for it over 30 years!!!

                      Comment

                      • Ian S
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Sep 2011
                        • 1879

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Spektre
                        After I digested this, I started searching for people posting about what a load of BS their pitch is, but found nothing.
                        Most folks here have been highly critical for years especially with respect to the escalator and how their systems sold for purchase are way overpriced - the thinking being that it makes their lease look better which is their bread and butter. I don't remember a single discussion of SC here withoutthe suggestion being made that anyone considering them get other quotes. Plus the escalator is universally reviled here even by those like me who think a lease can in some circumstances make sense. Note that SC is not the only one who resorts to an escalator.

                        Comment

                        • Alisobob
                          Banned
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 605

                          #42
                          At American Solar Direct... the lease payment COMPOUNDS at 3%.

                          Example:

                          $100 goes to $103....

                          then...

                          $103 goes to $106.10

                          Then $109.30.

                          After 30 years, compounding , rather than adding the 3% really adds up.

                          Its all a total scam...... buying is the right choice.

                          Comment

                          • Ian S
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Sep 2011
                            • 1879

                            #43
                            Originally posted by Alisobob
                            At American Solar Direct... the lease payment COMPOUNDS at 3%.

                            Example:

                            $100 goes to $103....

                            then...

                            $103 goes to $106.10

                            Then $109.30.

                            After 30 years, compounding , rather than adding the 3% really adds up.

                            Its all a total scam...... buying is the right choice.
                            OK, I just went back to my quotes from summer 2011. I hadn't really paid much attention to the escalator because I was interested in the prepaid lease. But at that time SolarCity had a 3.5% escalator and if you wade through the details, it too was compounded. By year 20 your monthly payment nearly doubles. You could buy your way out of the escalator but it was expensive to do so. Here's a capture from the SolarCity proposal. And folks wonder why I went with a prepaid lease - not this one but an even better priced one from SunPower!

                            ScreenHunter_04 May. 05 13.45.jpg

                            Comment

                            • Alisobob
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 605

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Ian S
                              I hadn't really paid much attention to the escalator ...... By year 20 your monthly payment nearly doubles.
                              This is the plan..... and no one seems to care.. at least on my street

                              Comment

                              • Spektre
                                Member
                                • May 2015
                                • 82

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Alisobob
                                At American Solar Direct... the lease payment COMPOUNDS at 3%.

                                Example:

                                $100 goes to $103....

                                then...

                                $103 goes to $106.10

                                Then $109.30.

                                After 30 years, compounding , rather than adding the 3% really adds up.

                                Its all a total scam...... buying is the right choice.
                                Exactly - the PURCHASE at Solar City COMPOUNDS at 2.9%! How is that me buying the system??? It's not an interest rate on the loan, it's how they've managed to configure the loan payback. You pay the loan back by buying your power at a rate that compounds at 2.9% annually. What a scam!

                                Comment

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