Mythical $3.50/watt installation?

[J.P.M.]

Howdy,

I think its got a lot to do with more uniform regulations around our states. We only have 6 states and regs are very similar. Getting the paperwork to install is straightforward online process and in most cases are approved straight away. The other thing i think are our roofs, no snow here in Adelaide ever, most roofs are metal what we call colourbond roof, is way easy and fast to install on. Some of our best install crews can do 2 x 5kW installs in a day provided they can start early and jobs are close to each other

Maybe Aussie consumers learned what not to do from watching what happens to all the sheep.

[araghava]

I did 3$/W in San Francisco by buying the system myself and getting a GC to do the install.

[Samsolar]

The math I do is $/watt installed- $2/watt for materials = $/watt for installation. $2 bucks for materials covers an average install with microinverters, but not any extras like service upgrades or roof work.

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

I believe $1/watt installs will become much more common as incentives melt away, panels get larger (W) and installers want/need to keep ROIs in the 10 year or less range. For the lowest installed price, buying your own materials and paying someone by the hour to do the install may offer the best pricing second only to doing it yourself.

[SunEagle]

The math I do is $/watt installed- $2/watt for materials = $/watt for installation. $2 bucks for materials covers an average install with microinverters, but not any extras like service upgrades or roof work.

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

I believe $1/watt installs will become much more common as incentives melt away, panels get larger (W) and installers want/need to keep ROIs in the 10 year or less range. For the lowest installed price, buying your own materials and paying someone by the hour to do the install may offer the best pricing second only to doing it yourself.

The decision to install it yourself will come down to what you want to spend and what is allowed by your state and local codes. Not all states allow just anyone to install a pv system. Some places require, contractor licenses and specific solar pv certifications or they will not be approved for final connection to the grid.

[donald]

.............

So a 8kW system, quoted at $3.50 watt installed works out to $12k for installation, overhead and profit. My DIY install took 80 man hours and I was not fast. I'm sure the pros would run circles around me, but even at 80 hours, that is $150/hr(!) which is double the local rate around here for electricians.

And we know that $2/watt for material is a very high number, considering that the all in price in Australia is <$2 U.S. before incentives. This must mean that in Australia and Germany that solar is installed for a good wage for the owner/electrician, and not much more. It must mean that a single crew small company in those countries is installing 30kw+ per week.

At $500 reduction in inverter prices won't mean much in the U.S.. It is apparently all the indirect dollars that make U.S. solar relatively expensive. Interesting.

The minimum wage in Australia is $16.88 AUD. The average yearly salary for an electrician in the U.S. is $53,000. Less than $30 an hour.

The weak AUD dollar makes importing solar components expensive. But they don't (I think) have the U.S. like tariff on Chinese PV.

I did 3$/W in San Francisco by buying the system myself and getting a GC to do the install.

Did you get solar company quotes?

[solarix]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees, (did you know that SolarCity pays well over $10.00/click for Google adwords), etc, etc, etc..... I tried for a while to offer free classes around here (one night a week only) just to help people that want to go solar but can only afford DIY sweat equity - but got very poor response. People would rather pay double to have us do it for them.
That being said, I'm still amazed how the going rate in California seems to be over $3.50/watt. We are well below $3.00 in my area. Bottom line is you charge what the market will bear. All the states with booming solar businesses are the ones with high electric rates.
Here in Arizona, we have the best sunshine in the country, and yet the utility rates are low, the Utilities are very aggressive, and the big solar companies are pulling out.

[J.P.M.]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees, (did you know that SolarCity pays well over $10.00/click for Google adwords), etc, etc, etc..... I tried for a while to offer free classes around here (one night a week only) just to help people that want to go solar but can only afford DIY sweat equity - but got very poor response. People would rather pay double to have us do it for them.
That being said, I'm still amazed how the going rate in California seems to be over $3.50/watt. We are well below $3.00 in my area. Bottom line is you charge what the market will bear. All the states with booming solar businesses are the ones with high electric rates.
Here in Arizona, we have the best sunshine in the country, and yet the utility rates are low, the Utilities are very aggressive, and the big solar companies are pulling out.

Big +1 on selling to the market.

Also, somewhat similar, A few years ago, I wrote several articles in my comm. newspaper about what residents might consider if they were thinking about solar energy, adding my contact info for questions/comments. I had a total of 4 calls - 2 seeking confirmation that the arrays they purchased prior to publication were a great idea, and 2 telling me to go to hell. So far, there are 66 solar arrays (and counting) on roofs in a 550 home HOA 's. I'm of the opinion that most all of them are not cost effective. Since I do the review and recommendations for/to the Arch. Rev. Comm., I've got access to the data relating to equipment and cost.

With apologies to professional and ethical vendors, given that data and what I see as people's self induced ignorance, IMO, most folks have no idea how badly they are allowing themselves to get screwed (or actually, doing it to themselves). But, not my money/property/life.

[donald]

There is a huge difference in the cost of me installing a system for myself and me installing a system for you. The overhead costs on being in business are tremendous, Being licensed, bonded, insured, trained, certified, educated, workman's comp'd, employment taxed, income taxed, sales taxed, business taxed, advertizing, promotions, referral fees,

Of course, but Germany is said to be be 40% below the U.S. average. While Germany may have streamlined permit and inspection portion, the overhead placed on the business owner certainly isn't less than the U.S. Almost everything is more expensive in Germany compared to the U.S. Yet solar is much cheaper?

I think customer acquisition must cost considerably less in Australia and Germany. I expect those homeowners are using know, local companies. Perhaps the large installers in the U.S. have distorted the market in complex ways. Established, local tradesmen are always busy as long as the economy hasn't completely tank. Who uses a large company to replace the furnace?

The high cost of solar in the U.S. attracts large company like NRG energy to enter the install business. I don't see how in Australia or Germany a large company with large company overhead can enter that side of the business.

[solarix]

Oh ya, how could I forget the cost of permitting? (the biggest source of stress in my life) I try to block it out of my mind I guess. Of course, if the average Joe tried to get a permit though themselves - they would really be stressed out. (I see these poor souls all the time down at the build dept. getting lectured). I just hope and pray for the Sunshot initiative.

[J.P.M.]

Of course, but Germany is said to be be 40% below the U.S. average. While Germany may have streamlined permit and inspection portion, the overhead placed on the business owner certainly isn't less than the U.S. Almost everything is more expensive in Germany compared to the U.S. Yet solar is much cheaper?

I think customer acquisition must cost considerably less in Australia and Germany. I expect those homeowners are using know, local companies. Perhaps the large installers in the U.S. have distorted the market in complex ways. Established, local tradesmen are always busy as long as the economy hasn't completely tank. Who uses a large company to replace the furnace?

The high cost of solar in the U.S. attracts large company like NRG energy to enter the install business. I don't see how in Australia or Germany a large company with large company overhead can enter that side of the business.

I'd also suggest that part of the diff. U.S. to other countries is that residents of other countries aren't as profligate or perhaps not as ignorant of their use of energy. That may have some bearing on supply/demand. The ignorance part may also make selling in the U.S. an easier task.

[donald]

With apologies to professional and ethical vendors, given that data and what I see as people's self induced ignorance, IMO, most folks have no idea how badly they are allowing themselves to get screwed (or actually, doing it to themselves). But, not my money/property/life.

It's early in what is really a new type of home appliance business. Who gets screwed today on a home furnace install? Only people buying at the lowest price from an unknown vendor. There nothing complex about installing solar compared to other trades. The truly hard part is done by the component manufacturers.

Currently homeowners aren't knowledgeable, and installers are relatively inexperienced. Residential solar will settle into a business where the top skill level is "residential electrician". That skill is at the lower mid range of tradesmen. Decent money will probably be made by small companies with good business practices that are located in areas of decent demand.

I'm sure there are solar installers in Australia making money. Those profitable businesses have high customer referral at no cost, they are efficient on the install, and they make few mistakes that need correction/re-inspection.

[J.P.M.]

It's early in what is really a new type of home appliance business. Who gets screwed today on a home furnace install? Only people buying at the lowest price from an unknown vendor. There nothing complex about installing solar compared to other trades. The truly hard part is done by the component manufacturers.

Currently homeowners aren't knowledgeable, and installers are relatively inexperienced. Residential solar will settle into a business where the top skill level is "residential electrician". That skill is at the lower mid range of tradesmen. Decent money will probably be made by small companies with good business practices that are located in areas of decent demand.

I'm sure there are solar installers in Australia making money. Those profitable businesses have high customer referral at no cost, they are efficient on the install, and they make few mistakes that need correction/re-inspection.

On current non solar equipment: How bad the screwing is varies. Perhaps less than in the past, but, IMO, not due to more informed or knowledgeable users. I'd suggest most U.S. homeowners have little knowledge or concern about how oversized most of their HVAC equip. is relative to any remotely anticipated need, or how poorly a lot of HVAC distribution sys. are done - I wouldn't use the term design. That it has been and still is common and accepted (or unmentioned) practice does not make it a good situation.

A lot of the big energy savings as a response to the early energy crunches of the '70's came from fixing/improving the old systems put together in the days of cheap energy - savings of that sort were the low hanging fruit. Things have changed some since then, but most systems today are still lacking. A lot of the equipment is better to the point of overkill maybe, with perhaps unnecessary complexity adding to maint. costs, but still generally oversized, impairing the cost effectiveness. Most users are still clueless.

[SunEagle]

On current non solar equipment: How bad the screwing is varies. Perhaps less than in the past, but, IMO, not due to more informed or knowledgeable users. I'd suggest most U.S. homeowners have little knowledge or concern about how oversized most of their HVAC equip. is relative to any remotely anticipated need, or how poorly a lot of HVAC distribution sys. are done - I wouldn't use the term design. That it has been and still is common and accepted (or unmentioned) practice does not make it a good situation.

A lot of the big energy savings as a response to the early energy crunches of the '70's came from fixing/improving the old systems put together in the days of cheap energy - savings of that sort were the low hanging fruit. Things have changed some since then, but most systems today are still lacking. A lot of the equipment is better to the point of overkill maybe, with perhaps unnecessary complexity adding to maint. costs, but still generally oversized, impairing the cost effectiveness. Most users are still clueless.

For a lot of electrical equipment building it bigger does not take into account the amount of losses from lower efficiency and the high costs associate with running that equipment.

Over sizing transformers is another area where there is a lot of losses and costs to the owner. On average most 208/120v distribution transformers are loaded only about 10 to 15% even though their maximum efficiency is designed around a 35% loading. The efficiency of transformer starts to drops like a rock any where below 20% loading.

[gugy]

What would be a fair price to pay for a 4.6KW system with quality brand panels and all included (installation) in San Diego area?
I have been getting quotes on the $18k to $20k range and wondering if this is a fair price.
Also I need a new exterior electric panel that I hear is an average of $1200 to $1800 installed.

Thanks for any feedback!

[UkiwiS]

What would be a fair price to pay for a 4.6KW system with quality brand panels and all included (installation) in San Diego area?
I have been getting quotes on the $18k to $20k range and wondering if this is a fair price.
Also I need a new exterior electric panel that I hear is an average of $1200 to $1800 installed.

Thanks for any feedback!

I'm in SD and I think you should be able to do better. I signed up last week with a small Company that had good reviews. My PV system will be around 5.85 KW with Kyocera Panels and a SMA Inverter. Included is a sub-panel and a 240V outlet for my EV. My total cost before rebates is $3.23 per W.