Need help on my first solar build

[MarineLiner]

... the sites police?

[Pennguy]

It's great to know that, I actually find it very educational but I think comments such as what Sunkings has said demonstrates tunnel vision in his education. Using sarcasm and not giving the positives of solar energy only causes confusion. Applying his theory means that those who can actually afford it are also actually loosing NOT gaining is rubbish! And no one, even the rich likes to loose. As far as I see it, it's an irrational and a non-constructive approach.

[russ]

Green often suffers because of people wearing rose colored glasses. Those glasses we are generally against - it gives false expectations and a bad feeling later.

Sites police - I will certainly point out to Jason & Mike when someone is trying to take advantage of others. If you want something you should pay for it and not freeload off others.

[Pennguy]

I just started using this site this is my 9th post total and already you feel threatened by me? Oh please get a life!

[russ]

I just started using this site this is my 9th post total and already you feel threatened by me? Oh please get a life!

I am not the least bit threatened by you - neither is Sunking or any of the others that use the site who know what they are doing.

The people that are threatened are the one timers and newbies that fall for those links and waste money on them.

I suggest you get a life and stop trying to get a free ride - that is what you are doing with the click bank thing apparently.

[Pennguy]

Whatever, no more explanations! See ya

[russ]

This is rich - the spammer (and he knew exactly what he was doing) got injured feelings?

Belongs to clickbank and everytime he can drop the link and get someone to click on it there is some small amount credited to his account apparently.

Just trying to get a free ride off Jason or anyone else that allows it!

[Pennguy]

The reason I keep answering your posts is because it amuses me, that such an intelliguent person such as yourself [yeah right] needs to insult & accuse people to feel like he's worth something. How pathetic!

[Pennguy]

This post is meant to go for Sunkings, this is a calculation made by the state of Pennsylvania to those with a grid tie system.

http://www.safeshelter.com/Solar/include/solar_payback.pdf

[Sunking]

This post is meant to go for Sunkings, this is a calculation made by the state of Pennsylvania to those with a grid tie system.

http://www.safeshelter.com/Solar/inc...ar_payback.pdf

Penn guy thank you. I have read many such white papers, wrote a few myself. I have never said a grid-tied system cannot have an ROI. Without out governement subsides you are looking at 30 years or more. But to have a payback of 5 years take some special conditions like subsidies, location, very high utility rates, and paying cash for the system (no loans).

What I have consistently repeated is there is no ROI on a battery system, and no EROI. There is no way to make the numbers work because of the constant replacement of batteries, the extremely poor efficiency, and utilizing the available power from such systems. There is no math model you can run to ever show a gain. Now I do know of a couple of folks who come out ahead using a battery system but their situations are so unique that it is not a realistic model that the public could conform too.

Now with that said not all is rosy with grid-tied systems. You might be right in that I have some tunnel vision. I worked my first 12 years for a electric utility as a power generation and distribution engineer. I now own and operate my own engineering and design firm, and still do contract work for utilities. So I have inside information and knowledge of the business most are not privileged too. So I will tell you and anyone reading this something you will not like.

Here in the USA and all other countries where the government is subsidizing Renewable Energy, the public is being ripped off, and is pretty much a pyramid scam being played on the public.

Our government and utilities know full well RE cannot ever be anything more than a supplement for electric power to shave off the peak usage. It can never form the base supply. All you have to do is look at one RE source that has been used for the last 80 years to know that; hydro electric. For every watt of renewable energy you build, you must build a conventional plant to replace it at a moments notice. That is not being done. So this brings up the question of why build it twice but a topic for another day.

OK here is the deal. The utility companies with the backing of public funds (taxes) are having you the consumer install and build solar PV systems correct? You are fully responsible for all the installation, risk, maintenance, and replacement. A solar PV will help shave peak usage, but it does nothing for the base power. Will what this means is the utility does not have to build a power plant to meet peak demands. Normally the utilities would take a portion of their profits and invest it into capital expenditures like new power plants, transmission, distribution, operations, and maintenance. Now they are not doing that and they are using your money and equipment. They are taking those profits normally used for investment and paying themselves and stock holders nice fat dividends at your expense.

In a few short years the base demand will exceed their generation capacity. When that time comes can you guess where they are going to get that money to build the extra capacity that you will demand?

[Pennguy]

Well...I must say, when I looked at the way you have expressed yourself at the other threads you came across very discouraging about a system that many have been come to believe will work for them but if what you claim you are is true and what you say they [the government] has neglected to inform or conceal and puposfully misled us into believing and what you say what the energy companies have managed to do with the money they were originally suposed to have put away for investment purposes, I must say....IT IS SHOCKING!

Your answer is revealing on many levels, and I must apolygise for my accusations and seemingly disrespect for someone who did his time in collage to get to that level of position in this job industry. Not only that but has taken his knowledge to educate the public about the realities the governement is not revealing about this.

Thank you!

I will have to remove my signiture from these threads since I have notice I was wrong.

[Sunking]

I will have to remove my signiture from these threads since I have notice I was wrong.

No reason to do that.

I wouldn't go ballistic on the utility companies, it is not quite what they want to do. Better said what they are forced to do by are environmental policies. They have just found a short term loophole to profit from.

Go look at that white paper you linked too about Pennsylvania REC program. You will see a clue that i am telling you straight up. There is is some verbiage about the utilities not building any new generation capacity in the last 10 or 15 years in Pennsylvania. That is not because they do not want to, it is because we have allowed a minority special interest groups to hold us hostage. Between special interest, our government, and EPA policies no one can afford to build a new power plant.

Our current executive administration has repeatable stated they want to bankrupt utilities and oil companies. Those jobs in those industries and the ones that support those industries make up a huge portion of our economy. So when our current executive administration says things like that, they are saying they want to bankrupt you and our country.

If you want to see our future take a look at California energy policy. It models Germany and Spain. California has not built any conventional generation in 15 years. Today they import 25% of their electricity from Arizona, Nevada, and Oregon. Now the Mexican government is going to build coal fired power plants on their side of the border. We will ship them our coal, and they will ship back power to the border states. All those high paying jobs will go to Mexico. All because of our policy. That's my 2-cents worth.

[russ]

The California power plant situation sounds like something that happened in Oregon back in the 70's. Oregon being the green state at the time would not allow the building of an aluminum smelter along the Columbia river due to pollution. No problem - the plant was built on the opposite side of the river in Wshington - Oregon got all the pollution and no benefits.

The Pennsylvania study seems to take credit for RECs on the full amount of power whereas I believe that would only apply to what you sell?

There is no doubt that with enough incentives, subsides, RECs, FITs and all that anything can be economical. However, the states have very little money for this effort and what the feds supply is simply borrowed from China though. The value of a REC or FIT is not a guaranteed thing that can not be changed.

The overall population is paying for the subsidies and incentives while the segment that can take advantage of those is generally the wealthier class. The lease offers out there right now - that is a company taking advantage of the subsidy programs while offering the consumer a tidbit.

It will be great when solar costs actually come down to where they make economic sense without props - then people around the world can join as well.

[Pennguy]

I second that!

[crxvfr]

Wow! This post as I see it, has only managed to discourage people from going green as if it cannot be obtained.

I have noticed this. Does this notion saturate the entire solar power community or have I just been lucky? I want to do what I can, and so far, nobody has answered the questions I have directly, rather they go in a different (the same) direction and basically tell me all the reasons why it will not work.

Different people have different situations and different needs. Just because they are not willing to spend tens of thousands is no reason to discourage them or chase them away. I think I can get to where I want to be under $5000. ...not off the grid, but not dependent on the electric company to light my house or run my laptop, clocks, modem, router, etc. I'm intentionally building my systems separately. One to run small stuff and one for power tools which would only be run every now and then. That, albeit cold showers and a cook stove, and I could get by without the electric company.