Electrical panel upgrade

[OftheSeven]

I'm getting bids on 4.6kW - 5.2kW size systems and was told that my electric panel, rated 125amps is a little old but sufficient. Wondering if I should try to include an upgrade into the bid or not worry to fix what isn't broken?

We remodeled the kitchen 5 years ago and didn't upgrade it then. I have a plug-in hybrid in the garage now that uses an old 220v dryer outlet. I might get another plugin-hybrid in the future and haven't decided to share the plug or run another line in the future. My box is pretty full but don't foresee any house updates (electrically) in the future.

Some pics attached. Anything I should consider?

20150121_165800.jpg20150121_165824.jpg20150121_170126.jpg

[J.P.M.]

I'm getting bids on 4.6kW - 5.2kW size systems and was told that my electric panel, rated 125amps is a little old but sufficient. Wondering if I should try to include an upgrade into the bid or not worry to fix what isn't broken?

We remodeled the kitchen 5 years ago and didn't upgrade it then. I have a plug-in hybrid in the garage now that uses an old 220v dryer outlet. I might get another plugin-hybrid in the future and haven't decided to share the plug or run another line in the future. My box is pretty full but don't foresee any house updates (electrically) in the future.

Some pics attached. Anything I should consider?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5669[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5670[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]5671[/ATTACH]

FWIW; I'd get everything checked out by a reputable electrician, maybe even the solar vendor (VERY hopefully they are a reputable electrical contractor), keeping future needs in mind. Even if it looks like capacity won't be strained in the future, it can always be considered a + selling point some day. With everything is getting a bit long in the tooth anyway, if it was me, I'd think about upgrading (which I did, BTW). In any case, pay your money, take your choice, but as long as it looks like more elec. work will be done if solar is added - ???. Seems like elec. upgrades are common w/ solar additions.

[sensij]

If you are going to get a panel upgrade, I would shop it separately from the PV system. In our area, it seems that solar installers are charging up to $2500 for the upgrade, while an electrician might quote the same work for $1500. The work doesn't all have to be performed by one person to count for the solar tax credit.

I can't tell from your pictures what your panel rating is. Three common scenarios:

1) 100 A main breaker, 125 A rated busbar, allows (125 - 100) + (1.2 * 125) = 50 A of solar
2) 125 A main breaker, 125 A rated busbar, allows (1.2 * 125) = 25 A of solar
3) 100 A main breaker, 100 A rated busbar, allows (1.2 * 100) = 20 A of solar

If you are looking at SMA inverters, rated AC output current of the following:
SB4000TL-US: 20 A -> Could support 4200 W of panels, or more with some slight clipping
SB5000TL-US: 22 A
SB6000TL-US: 25 A -> Could support 6300 W of panels, or more with some slight clipping

With SolarEdge inverters, it would be similar:
SE3800A-US: 16 A -> Could support up to 4750 W of panels with some slight clipping
SE5000A-US: 21 A
SE6000A-US: 25 A -> Could support up to 7500 W of panels with some slight clipping

In any case, the breaker for the inverter will need to go at the bottom, so the breakers at the bottom now will have to move to the free space at the top, and it looks like that will fill up your panel.

I think a decision to leave the panel alone is defendable (I have a 100 A panel and am not upgrading it for my 3 kW system), but it won't give you flexibility to add a 2nd EV charge circuit without clearing space somewhere else.

[Alisobob]

I vote.... Do It.

[OftheSeven]

I vote.... Do It.

Bob - that's what I'm leaning towards. I plan to go with the guy you used, so I know his work is good. Trying to work a 'deal' this week

[foo1bar]

I'm getting bids on 4.6kW - 5.2kW size systems and was told that my electric panel, rated 125amps is a little old but sufficient. Wondering if I should try to include an upgrade into the bid or not worry to fix what isn't broken?

We remodeled the kitchen 5 years ago and didn't upgrade it then. I have a plug-in hybrid in the garage now that uses an old 220v dryer outlet. I might get another plugin-hybrid in the future and haven't decided to share the plug or run another line in the future. My box is pretty full but don't foresee any house updates (electrically) in the future.

Some pics attached. Anything I should consider?

Are you looking to replace the panel?
Or replace the panel *AND* upgrade the service?

If just replacing the panel, you could replace it with a panel capable of 200A, but put in a 100A main breaker.
And it wouldn't be terribly expensive. (guessing $300-500 for parts, $2k-2500 for labor depending on where you live)

If you're looking to replace the panel and upgrade the service, it's now a question of how the wires get to your panel. I'm guessing underground based on the pics. So then it's a question of: How big are your existing cables to the POCO? How big is the conduit? If they both need to be replaced, how long of a run is it? (ie. how much digging).

I rented a mini-excavator, and with delivery/pickup it was ~$500. The new wire and conduit for my replacing the underground was ~$600 (I think it could have been ~$300 if I had gone Aluminum, but already had the copper in hand before I identified I could have gone with Alum.) If I had paid for labor, it would have been quite a bit more.

[Alisobob]

Bob - that's what I'm leaning towards. I plan to go with the guy you used, so I know his work is good. Trying to work a 'deal' this week

solar f2.jpg

Then this is what you will probably get.

Its a Eaton panel, designed specifically for solar installs...

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@electrical/documents/content/br003002en.pdf

[OftheSeven]

Are you looking to replace the panel?
Or replace the panel *AND* upgrade the service?

If just replacing the panel, you could replace it with a panel capable of 200A, but put in a 100A main breaker.
And it wouldn't be terribly expensive. (guessing $300-500 for parts, $2k-2500 for labor depending on where you live)

If you're looking to replace the panel and upgrade the service, it's now a question of how the wires get to your panel. I'm guessing underground based on the pics. So then it's a question of: How big are your existing cables to the POCO? How big is the conduit? If they both need to be replaced, how long of a run is it? (ie. how much digging).

I rented a mini-excavator, and with delivery/pickup it was ~$500. The new wire and conduit for my replacing the underground was ~$600 (I think it could have been ~$300 if I had gone Aluminum, but already had the copper in hand before I identified I could have gone with Alum.) If I had paid for labor, it would have been quite a bit more.

Thanks for the info! I don't know enough about what what's coming in (yes, it's underground). I'm considering upgrading the panel as a means of future expansion down the road for my house needs but I understand what you're saying is important and will play a part in the equation.

[Alisobob]

My house is fairly new (20 years) and I forget the ga. size, but my installer said what SCE put in was fine up to 150 amps, and did not need to be upgraded, even if I added a pool down the road.

Hopefully your neck of the woods is similarly equipped.

[foo1bar]

Thanks for the info! I don't know enough about what what's coming in (yes, it's underground). I'm considering upgrading the panel as a means of future expansion down the road for my house needs but I understand what you're saying is important and will play a part in the equation.

Now is a good time to find out what you've got coming in.
Probably there's a vault between you and your neighbor with "SCE Low voltage" or something similar on the cover.
Mine was near the street on the property line between my neighbor and me.
Its possible that the vault might be across the street.
If you call the call-before-you-dig hotline, you can get the power company to come out and mark the lines - and as they do that, you can probably find out what gauge the wire is. (and whether it's copper or Alum)

Good luck.

[SoCalsolar]

Most Utilities will

Most utilities will do a spot or meter check to ensure your incoming lines and local transformers can handle the potential increased load by your 200amp panel. Not a huge fan of panel upgrades but if it adds enough value for you is all that matters. It does give you more options regarding a 2nd EV. A reasonable cost for a panel upgrade to 200amps would be about $2000.

[CraziFuzzy]

I'm coming up on the planning phase of a smallish solar install (patio cover), and am thinking about the different ways to handle the panel situation. Mine is a tad ambiguous, as the label appears to be missing from my panel. It, unfortunately, is a center-fed panel with a 100A main. No idea if it is a 125A bus or a 100A bus. It is currently full, but logistically, replacing it isn't necessarily the best option. The panel is at the front of my garage, furthest from any significant electrical loads or future additions.

The options, as I see it:

1. Keep the 100A panel, de-rate to 80A main breaker, and install a subpanel closer to my future load locations and the solar. 60A feeder to the subpanel, with the 20A solar disconnect in either the sub or the main.
2. Upgrade the panel to a KNOWN 125A bus with a 100A feeder, keeping my (assumed) 100A service, with more positions to allow the solar, plus some potential future additions.
3. Upgrade panel and service to a 200A, with ample room for everything
4. Keep the existing panel as is, and install the solar with it's own service disconnect to the load side of the meter.

Honestly, #1 is my preferred method at this point, as it would provide me the most flexibility later on. The really annoying part is that the panel, from 1992, is likely a 125A bus, which would make things less complicated, but have no proof of that being the case. A cursory glance around the neighborhood (tract homes) shows a large variety of solutions, none of which involved replacing the panel, oddly enough.

[SoCalsolar]

Go check out

Go check out a few on your neighbors panels until you find one with the paper still in it. Look for one that is facing north as it will have had the least exposure to sun and heat. If you can find one with the paper in it and it looks the same as your it's likely the same as yours. Derating to 80 amps I don't believe is allowed everywhere.

[CraziFuzzy]

Go check out a few on your neighbors panels until you find one with the paper still in it. Look for one that is facing north as it will have had the least exposure to sun and heat. If you can find one with the paper in it and it looks the same as your it's likely the same as yours. Derating to 80 amps I don't believe is allowed everywhere.

Yeah, I will likely be doing that in the next couple days. For other reasons, I'm going to end up with a subpanel at some point anyway - and I've read conflicting interpretations on whether solar to a subpanel affects the ampacity arrangement of the main at all. Electrically, I can still see how 20A into the subpanel, with 0 load on the subpanel (unlikely) could then feed into the main, where that 20 A could pass and combine with the 100A of the main to exceed the buss rating on the opposite side of the main - but is this spelled out in the code?

Center-fed panels are a pain. To me, just the act of ensuring the the total of all load breakers on the opposite side of the main of a center-fed are less than the bus rating should eliminate the overloading potential, but the code (as of yet) doesn't seem to reflect this.

The actual solar install may be a ways off. I am thinking the best thing to do would be to start with the simple subpanel install as it's own project, moving a selection of existing loads to the sub, with expansion room (60A feeder to sub from main). Then later, on the solar install, if the 20A solar feed is brought into the sub, is the average inspector going to even look at the main?

[SoCalsolar]

I think

I think most inspectors will open the main and take a peak. The plan checker will look at the drawings and they ought to match what's at your home. I would question somebody taking the type of risks you are suggesting. What other corners will they cut if they think they won't get caught? Check the neighbors main electrical panels then start plotting and planning.