Help with solar quote in Murrieta.

[thejq]

In situations like this, I tend to favor what has tried/true stood the test of time. For my money, one such method is bolting vertical posts to rafters and double flashing them, while caulking and metal taping each flashing around the posts.

Yep, my sentiment exactly. Use the best and most trusted mounting HW if you can.

[Gmoney!]

Yep, my sentiment exactly. Use the best and most trusted mounting HW if you can.

So you two both recommend quickmount? How much more will it cost for 17 panel system?

[sensij]

It looks like the Quickmount Qbase system they are describing costs about $40 / mount. Tile Trac costs about $12 / mount. I'm not going to argue which one is better... price is a good clue, probably. I will only point out that Tile Trac is an established installation system, as "tried and true" as any out there, and there are many installers who use it successfully. I also agree that the engineering design of Quickmount's system looks more reliable to me. However, comparing Tile Trac to the garbage that HX_Guy's installer was using does not show much respect for the presence ProSolar has established in the market.

Any mounting system can be mis-installed, so the more important thing, in my opinion, is for the installer to have experience and be comfortable with installing the system properly. I think that asking an installer to use either system if they have no prior experience doing so would be asking for trouble.

Edit: @thejq: Please take this in the friendly spirit in which it is intended. If one wishes to present himself as an expert or authority on roof sealing techniques, or to offer an opinion that suggests knowledge of the subject, one should learn to use the vocabulary properly. "Flashing" and "Sealing" have meaning, "Flushing", not so much.

[Gmoney!]

Thanks for all the input guys. I understand what everyone's point is and will take it all into consideration.

Think my biggest issue now is being there for the install. I will do my best to be there as soon as I can. Does the city inspector come same day right before they put the panels on?

[thejq]

Edit: @thejq: Please take this in the friendly spirit in which it is intended. If one wishes to present himself as an expert or authority on roof sealing techniques, or to offer an opinion that suggests knowledge of the subject, one should learn to use the vocabulary properly. "Flashing" and "Sealing" have meaning, "Flushing", not so much.

Appreciate the spelling correction. In fact, I never was or pretended to be an expert in either roofing or solar tech. I came here to learn and share like most people. Perhaps the many plumbing problems I was having lately were messing with my head, hence the use of word "flushing" in the wrong places. I guess ESL is finally catching up to me and it showed.

Anyway, back to the topic. All the opinions are just that. There're no right or wrong opinions. For the home owner as long as he/she considered all the trade offs, an informed decision is all that matters.

[thejq]

Thanks for all the input guys. I understand what everyone's point is and will take it all into consideration.

Think my biggest issue now is being there for the install. I will do my best to be there as soon as I can. Does the city inspector come same day right before they put the panels on?

Fyi some installer in this thread just said never use Tile Trac. http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...uot-style-roof Go figure.

[Gmoney!]

Fyi some installer in this thread just said never use Tile Trac. http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...uot-style-roof Go figure.

Not sure where you see he says not to use tile track.. He says not to use them without flashing.. Big difference than never use them.

[thejq]

Not sure where you see he says not to use tile track.. He says not to use them without flashing.. Big difference than never use them.

It might be a good idea to PM him directly for clarification to "a) tile trac or s-hooks that do not include flashings should never be used". I though I gave you a heads up. I'm not an installer and don't want to mislead you.

[Gmoney!]

Good idea and appreciate the help

[SanDiego_installer]

I'm the guy who said not to use tile trac. They are cheaper, faster and.....that's about it. However they don't meet any recognized roofing industry standard. It relies on the existing roofing paper and a bead of sealant to provide a water-tight seal. If your putting them on a 2 year old roof, you just voided the roof warranty. If you put them on an old roof.....good luck. What type of roof attachment meets the national roofing industry standard? A flashable post attachment. That's it, period, end of story (we're talking tile roofs here).

The good news is that you can easily find a reputable installer who will install your system the correct way, and for probably the same price. Almost every racking company offers this type of attachment. Even the company that manufactures tile trac, makes a flashable post.

[thejq]

I'm the guy who said not to use tile trac. They are cheaper, faster and.....that's about it. However they don't meet any recognized roofing industry standard. It relies on the existing roofing paper and a bead of sealant to provide a water-tight seal. If your putting them on a 2 year old roof, you just voided the roof warranty. If you put them on an old roof.....good luck. What type of roof attachment meets the national roofing industry standard? A flashable post attachment. That's it, period, end of story (we're talking tile roofs here).

The good news is that you can easily find a reputable installer who will install your system the correct way, and for probably the same price. Almost every racking company offers this type of attachment. Even the company that manufactures tile trac, makes a flashable post.

Thanks for clarifying it from an installer's perspective. I did not know that. Glad I didn't ruin my roof.

[sensij]

The hatchet job on tile trac is interesting. I have no skin in the game, and don't understand the strong opinions being expressed here. The penetration in the tile is made in the top of the S, minimizing water exposure. The picture shows that was done properly. The penetration through the paper and sheathing is not only sealed, but the sealant is under compression. Is it better than flashing? No, probably not. Is it engineered well enough to be leak proof for the life of the installation? Could be. The system was patented almost 15 years ago, you would think there would be more horror stories out there if they were really doing something wrong.

Prosolar does make a flashed post for shingles, but not for tile.

In any case, no matter what mount you use, if you want to preserve a warranty you will need your roofer to inspect the retro-fit at the time it is done. If you are concerned about the impact on your roof's warranty, call your roofer, do not trust anonymous advice on the internet.

[J.P.M.]

FWIW, I've got to mostly go with S.D. Installer on this one.

If I need to penetrate a tile on a sloped surface, I want to be damn sure that penetration has at least another tile or another solid barrier like a flashing lapping over the penetration and above it ("uphill'), and/or double flashing and then well sealed at and around all points where two surfaces meet (or actually don't quite meet).

It is always better to have an unbroken surface as the first barrier against water ingress, and if that barrier needs to be penetrated for any reason on a sloped surface, have another similar but unbroken barrier lapped over and above the original barrier.

Sealing compounds and methods can be quite good, but they will never be as reliable as gravity and unbroken lapped surfaces for leak prevention.

Think about it: Is it better to have a very well caulked/sealed mostly horizontal joint exposed to rain/running water, or have that same joint covered by an unbroken surface, like concrete that sheds water, and an identical, or solid flashing surface, lapping above that one that does the same thing ?

One of the best and common methods to best ensure no water leakage for the well designed penetration is to force the water to go "uphill", in effect, defying gravity to get to a sealed joint. Since I've not seen flowing water reverse direction and go uphill of its own accord, that sounds like a better first line of defense to me. Well sealed joints are a good 2d line of defense.

A well thought out roof penetration will use simple concepts that don't rely on, or minimize reliance on, joint integrity as the primary protection against leakage.

Sealants can fail. Gravity does not. I'll use systems that best use things use things that don't fail.

[sensij]

This post seems to have some applicability here. If watertight S-tile roofs can go up without any plywood or paper at all, it stands to reason that questioning the engineering of how the penetration under the tile is sealed may not necessarily be the most important detail to focus on during the install. Execution of that engineered design would be higher on my list. By putting the tile penetration in the high point of the S-tile, gravity is used as the first line of defense to keep water from collecting on the joint.

Again, I'm not saying Tile Trac is better than the QBase, or challenging anyone's suggestion of the good engineering concepts that go into making a leak proof roof. I'm just suggesting that sometimes, a design space may allow for more than one solution, and for a decision maker to consider cost is not a bad thing.

[J.P.M.]

This post seems to have some applicability here. If watertight S-tile roofs can go up without any plywood or paper at all, it stands to reason that questioning the engineering of how the penetration under the tile is sealed may not necessarily be the most important detail to focus on during the install. Execution of that engineered design would be higher on my list. By putting the tile penetration in the high point of the S-tile, gravity is used as the first line of defense to keep water from collecting on the joint.

Again, I'm not saying Tile Trac is better than the QBase, or challenging anyone's suggestion of the good engineering concepts that go into making a leak proof roof. I'm just suggesting that sometimes, a design space may allow for more than one solution, and for a decision maker to consider cost is not a bad thing.

There are always many ways to incorporate sound and common sense principles in a particular application and get a good design. There are many aspects to good design. One is cost, often balanced with other considerations There are different types of costs. One is initial. another is maintenance. One more is repair. Poor attention to well known, time tested, workable design principles for the sake of low(er) initial cost, and probably at the expense of later maintenance and repair costs is false economy.

Look at it this way: A visible penetration in a tile that you can see means water can see it too. Gravity will get you only a partial benefit. A visible penetration at the top (the crown) of an "S" tile will still allow water to get at the penetration, both from above that same tile along the same centerline and so on, and also from direct precipitation.

Also, and as a separate consideration, if the tile is an "S" tile, penetrating through the crown and sealing with a washer and nut (and then caulking) will put a tensile stress on bottom side of that tile at the penetration (even if braced from underneath), and likely break it from the applied force of attachment or through fatigue stress due to vibration or alternating stress from wind. Better to attach at the valleys, keep the penetration out of sight and prestress the clip that attaches to the racking in tension with a spacer against vibration.

No system is 100% foolproof. At the end of the day, bottom line on best chance for joints that will have least probability of moisture penetration: Keep them away from and above any place where water can flow or collect, and protect them from precip. or other stuff dumped on them by traditional layering or covering or other means - that is, keep them out of sight. Any system that accomplishes those goals while meeting other design requirements is worth considering.