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  • #76
    Originally posted by Willaby View Post

    That's too bad that some HOA dictators get to make this policy, even challenging professional installers, claiming they know best, the so-called "resident expert", especially since the homeowner is willing to pay extra for the improved aesthetics. Removing tile and laying roll asphalt is the optimum mounting method for cement & spanish "S" tile type roofs. The asphalt is laid from the ridge top (important) to the eve and two feet beyond the sides of the array profile. The entire array is flush mounted and then the full perimeter is flashed. The asphalt life, normally 20-30 years, is doubled plus as it is completely covered by the panels. The "S" tile is then reinstalled to within an inch of the outer panels. Benefits are obviously aesthetic as they are flush, no stanchions to fail or leak, no build-up of debris (animal or foliage, etc) underneath that is hard to get to, and elimination of wind loading as a concern. Only drawback is the cost, around $6-8 per square foot or ~40c/watt.

    I researched it with my installer and a local roofing company, but backed out due to cost and because my array is not visible anyway, but now wish I'd have done it. It just looks so much better, as if integrated with the roof. Oh, and how do you know it is the proven, best way? Well, that's how new construction solar is installed: same roof type, same panels, same structure, just flush-mounted over asphalt right from the start.
    Without rehashing the past as we've done in discussing the reasons all that is wrong headed in the above, I'd only comment that if something is too bad, it's the ignorance and myopic attitude of way too many home owners who fall for this scheme. Even when done as described it's because it's cheaper and easier to do (and don't fall for the B.S. it costs more - as in, do you really think a lot of new construction is done that way because it costs more ? Right.), system performance and long term roof integrity be damned. It's not done that way most of the time anyway, at least not on existing residences that I've seen.

    HOA concerns in this issue are not primarily about aesthetics. The concerns are about roof integrity, less ability to inspect under an array, more problems finding leaks, little/no ability to clean out stuff that will get under an array with attendant smell/crud/bacteria growth buildup problems for not only the homeowner, but perhaps neighbors who will smell it. Then, in addition to the concerns about leak detection and servicing, there is the reality that HOA's tends to be concerned about neighborhood appearance, but a bigger issue is really property values. This is the long term crux of the matter, at least in my HOA. As an aside, many folks in my HOA think Solar is ugly, and based on the many derelict water heaters around here, that's understandable. What happens when, say 10 years from now, a PV array comes off a roof for reasons totally unknown at this time or we can only guess at ? A big, gaping area on a roof - that's what. Find tiles that will match to fill in the hole. Never mind about style - find a color match. Good luck on that one. That, and the unspoken concern about property values masked as aesthetic concerns are a big deal. As in, what does a homeowner think will happen to the value of their home if/when one or more neighbor's roofs look like a checkerboard ? See a potential problem coming down the road that happened for a bunch of B.S. reasons in the first place and could have been avoided in the first place ?

    HOA's are a PITA, and Boards can attract their share of HOA nazis. However, sometimes they do things that are in fulfillment of their tasked fiduciary responsibilities per the by laws, CC&R's and other governing documents. Sometimes those things are in the best long term interests of the HOA, even if the shortsighted and/or selfish members don't like the situation. Those who don't like the way the game is run have at least 3 options: Get involved and work for change, sue the HOA, [U]loser[/U] pays costs, or know what's involved before you buy in, and if not suitable, don't buy in.

    Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.
    Last edited by J.P.M.; 02-16-2016, 01:50 PM.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post


      This is your opinion.
      Comp outs have higher temperatures and thus lower performance. You end up with considerably more water and debree under the tiles particularly the lower tiles.
      Role asphalt is not really appropriate for this use either (generally for low slope), and role asphalt roofing generally comes with a 10 year warranty or less.
      Often the installers cheap out on the flashing as well.

      http://www.gaf.com/Residential_Roofi...d_Warranty.pdf
      Butch -
      Not my opinion, except maybe the part about they look better, and my opinion that HOA dictators shouldn't be able to make the call on this type of high-end install. Aside from my installer I consulted with ABC roofing in San Marcos, CA. You are correct the temps might be slightly higher as the array is 4" high instead of maybe 6 or 8", but my choice, right? Not sure what you are thinking about the debris. You do know they flash the downside of chimneys, gables, roof planes, vents etc just fine? Hey, if you happen to have some leaves, etc up there, clean it up, so what, I've done that every few years before having solar, why should it be different. How is it so hi-tech to properly flash the downside of a solar array, as much as some want to say it can't be done (incredible!).

      On your warranty attachment, really, picking the shortest warranty you could find to make a point? FWIW, I would have gone with 3-tab shingles. Regardless, they are under the panels and tiles away from UV and direct heat. And "installers cheap out on the flashing", why? I guess you could say they cheap out on the stanchion flashing too? I guess you could say they cheap out on everything, but they don't, unless you let them.

      My post is as much about HOA bosses who know more than everyone and want to decide what is best. I've got the oversight of two HOA's, glad they are quite reasonable.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Willaby View Post

        Butch -
        Not my opinion, except maybe the part about they look better, and my opinion that HOA dictators shouldn't be able to make the call on this type of high-end install. Aside from my installer I consulted with ABC roofing in San Marcos, CA. You are correct the temps might be slightly higher as the array is 4" high instead of maybe 6 or 8", but my choice, right? Not sure what you are thinking about the debris. You do know they flash the downside of chimneys, gables, roof planes, vents etc just fine? Hey, if you happen to have some leaves, etc up there, clean it up, so what, I've done that every few years before having solar, why should it be different. How is it so hi-tech to properly flash the downside of a solar array, as much as some want to say it can't be done (incredible!).

        On your warranty attachment, really, picking the shortest warranty you could find to make a point? FWIW, I would have gone with 3-tab shingles. Regardless, they are under the panels and tiles away from UV and direct heat. And "installers cheap out on the flashing", why? I guess you could say they cheap out on the stanchion flashing too? I guess you could say they cheap out on everything, but they don't, unless you let them.

        My post is as much about HOA bosses who know more than everyone and want to decide what is best. I've got the oversight of two HOA's, glad they are quite reasonable.

        YOU stated that they used role roofing not me.

        Originally posted by Willaby View Post
        Removing tile and laying roll asphalt
        and most role roofing is warrantied for 3 years. I picked the longest not shortest.
        as for debris, I am talk ing about the stuff washing through the gaps at the edge of the array then under the tiles. NOT what you would want.
        For flashing I am talking about the mounts being flashed properly NOT around chimneys, etc.
        BTW, a comp out should be a cheaper not more expensive install.

        As for the temperature. it isn't the hight but the fact that they are inset flush with the tiles so there is very very (read none) air flow, so the temperatures soar.


        As for your HOA comments I agree though USUALLY it is the other way around, with HOA wanting the comp out which is a poor install method.
        OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Vintess View Post
          Hi all,

          I am new to the forum and would appreciate any info. I am planning on installing a 6kw system in the very near future. My concern, as others have posted also, is how the installers are going to mount the brackets/anchors for the panels to my cement Spanish S roof tiles. I have read the relevant posts on this forum and have decided to go with an installer that will NOT replace my tiles with composite (asphalt) tiles/sheet material under the panels. I plan on getting a minimum of 3 bids from installers that will use some sort of flashing on the mounts (preferably attached to the rafters. I would appreciate any feedback from members who have had a local SD installer install their system on a similar roof. I know that forum members are prohibited from using installer business names on the forum. Therefore, it is perfectly okay to PM me with referral installers in the area who have done such installations. Please understand that I will be unable to reply with a "thank you," since I do not yet have enough posts. But all replies will be greatly appreciated.
          Hi your info is wrong now, it is ok for people to mention their installers, we just want people to link the installers name to their www.solarreviews.com page. So if the install was done by Maryland Solar Solutions this would be the correct way to mention them.

          PM's were turned off as they were being abused by referal farmers.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post
            YOU stated that they used role roofing not me.

            and most role roofing is warrantied for 3 years. I picked the longest not shortest.
            as for debris, I am talk ing about the stuff washing through the gaps at the edge of the array then under the tiles. NOT what you would want.
            For flashing I am talking about the mounts being flashed properly NOT around chimneys, etc.
            BTW, a comp out should be a cheaper not more expensive install.

            As for the temperature. it isn't the hight but the fact that they are inset flush with the tiles so there is very very (read none) air flow, so the temperatures soar.

            As for your HOA comments I agree though USUALLY it is the other way around, with HOA wanting the comp out which is a poor install method.
            I stated roll roofing because that is the standard and works fine, but 3-tab would have been my option for slightly more cost. YOU stated the "lower tiles" were more at risk, but these are fully flashed, as with chimneys, etc per my example. My chimney flash is ~3" over the tiles, zero debris and no leaks, would be the same with flash from the panel bottom over the top of the tiles. There is no gap, it is panel over flash, flash over tile. I don't know if you're living under pine trees, but even pine needles would flow right off (gravity wins). The roof mounts are all flashed as they would be anyway and they would be exposed to much less water, if any. YOU stated warranty, I stated roof LIFE would be doubled, since they are under the panels away from UV, water, etc. I just re-roofed a rental, original asphalt since new in 1979, no leaks, but cosmetically looked terrible. New roof is +40 year warranty, but pro-rated over 10, so mostly meaningless. And what about the wind load relief? We had some strong winds last month and I couldn't sleep due to racket of my panels catching wind and bouncing off the tiles. Oh, and the install cost is greater due to the cost of required roofers labor + insurance cost along with some materials. Noting that many perimeter tiles would need to be cut.

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Willaby View Post

              I stated roll roofing because that is the standard and works fine, but 3-tab would have been my option for slightly more cost. YOU stated the "lower tiles" were more at risk, but these are fully flashed, as with chimneys, etc per my example. My chimney flash is ~3" over the tiles, zero debris and no leaks, would be the same with flash from the panel bottom over the top of the tiles. There is no gap, it is panel over flash, flash over tile. I don't know if you're living under pine trees, but even pine needles would flow right off (gravity wins). The roof mounts are all flashed as they would be anyway and they would be exposed to much less water, if any. YOU stated warranty, I stated roof LIFE would be doubled, since they are under the panels away from UV, water, etc. I just re-roofed a rental, original asphalt since new in 1979, no leaks, but cosmetically looked terrible. New roof is +40 year warranty, but pro-rated over 10, so mostly meaningless. And what about the wind load relief? We had some strong winds last month and I couldn't sleep due to racket of my panels catching wind and bouncing off the tiles. Oh, and the install cost is greater due to the cost of required roofers labor + insurance cost along with some materials. Noting that many perimeter tiles would need to be cut.
              Ok so do you have a comp out or not. You talk about your system but what would have been your choice as well as how yours is flashed but also that you would have 3tab.... And then that your system rattles against the tiles .

              All I can say is that comp outs are cheaper installs, We do not let our installers do then unless customer absolutely wants then and are fully informed.
              There are major heat and thus performance issues with them and we are finding many HOAs that will not allow them. We deal with installers all over the US.
              There are gaps between the modules and around the perimeter that let considerable water and dirt under the modules, this water continues with dirt and debris to flow under the tiles that are below the array. This is quite common.

              A well installed array should not rattle and be rated for wind loads, further they generally reinforce the rough and make things more stable.
              OutBack FP1 w/ CS6P-250P http://bit.ly/1Sg5VNH

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by ButchDeal View Post

                Ok so do you have a comp out or not. You talk about your system but what would have been your choice as well as how yours is flashed but also that you would have 3tab.... And then that your system rattles against the tiles .

                All I can say is that comp outs are cheaper installs, We do not let our installers do then unless customer absolutely wants then and are fully informed.
                There are major heat and thus performance issues with them and we are finding many HOAs that will not allow them. We deal with installers all over the US.
                There are gaps between the modules and around the perimeter that let considerable water and dirt under the modules, this water continues with dirt and debris to flow under the tiles that are below the array. This is quite common.

                A well installed array should not rattle and be rated for wind loads, further they generally reinforce the rough and make things more stable.
                Nah, it doesn't rattle, I just threw that in but forgot the . No, I stated I wanted to do the comp with flush array. I researched it, got quoted on it and my installer was fine with it and had experience. In the end my 8" array is barely visible, so I didn't do it. I have 18 quickmounts plus ironridge. You're in the business, so you would know best. Still, certainly not for an HOA to decide.

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