Solar City info needed

[slopoke]

whole house fan (which I have) works well in spring time where it cools down pretty well at night and you can use that instead of AC to move in cool air. But in the summer time here in inland empire it can't be used because it never gets cool enough. I'm kind of in the same spot as you right now, I have solar quotes but I am sitting on them right now deciding what to do. Conservation can help and the payback is quicker than solar but in the end I will still have a fairly hefty summer time bill for running my 2 AC units so my big question is whether or not a 6 year solar payback would be worth it for me to do.

My ROI is just under 7 years and that is not factoring any increases in electricity prices. If your ROI is 6, to me that's a no brainer.

[yankeeboy]

I've insulated my house, put a whole house fan, got a solar attic fan on the roof and replaced my bulbs with LEDs. At this point, I'm conserving as much as I can, so on to solar. The insulation was by far my best investment. Anybody with an old drafty house with no insulation should start there.

Where do you live?
And how much of a difference did you see with your electric bill after making all those changes.

[russ]

If you have run the numbers as accurately as possible and they yield a six year payback for solar then, I wouldn't hesitate. That's a pretty decent return. The only caveat would be if you are planning a move before that time then I'd think on it more. If a move is not planned and you can stay put for a couple of decades, then there is probably no better investment at this point in time. That's assuming you have implemented as much (low cost) conservation as possible.

A perfect reply! 100% agreed!

[JCP]

Where do you live?
And how much of a difference did you see with your electric bill after making all those changes.

I live in the SF bay area and I never had A/C, and I made all those changes over many years. LEDs shaved ~1000 KWh a year (roughly), since my kids love to leave all lights on in every room. Insulation saved on gas in the winter, and made the house much nicer to live in (no big swing in temperature). In the summer, with the whole house fan and the insulation, if I cool the house down in the morning it does not get hot until 3-4pm (with 90 degrees outside). If you have A/C, insulation would make an even bigger change to your electric bill. The solar attic fan is cheap ($500 installed) and helps too.

I'm no tax expert, but I believe that there are some tax incentives to insulating your house.

[pleppik]

I'm no tax expert, but I believe that there are some tax incentives to insulating your house.

For 2013 it was a 30% credit up to $500 total. Not sure, but I think it's the same in 2014.

We claimed the 2013 credit for upgrading our insulation last summer, and we're saving about a third off our HVAC bill. That really means something in Minnesota.

[rocketcity]

I am a little bit further along in the SolarCity process--and I am about to sign a contract with them for a 20-year Power Purchase Agreement (PPA).

This thread is a perfect opportunity for me to ask this question: Does anyone know of a "SolarCity user group” in which we can share info and concerns. If such a group does not exist, would it be a good idea to create such a group on solarpaneltalk.com?

SolarCity makes a big deal about how transparent they are about their contracts:
<http://www.solarcity.com/pressreleases/164/steal-our-contracts!.aspx>
<http://www.solarcity.com/media-center/top-5-solar-contract-tips.aspx>

I am not too worried about selling the house mid-lease. There are plenty of options should that happen.

Here are the terms of their PPA offer...Question: Does anyone know if either of these things negotiable?:
• 15.80¢ per kWh
• 2.9% rate increase per year (escalator)

As yankeeboy mentioned, with a PPA you have the opportunity to buy the system after 5 years…

The Solarcity salesperson said, "So at that point, 5 years down the line- we will sell it to you at the Fair Market Value per a third party, meaning I’m not entirely sure what the depreciated value would be. We do it through a third party so that all of us (you and SolarCity are protected and there is no bias)."

Question: Can I attempt to negotiate the eventual purchase price now?

The Solarcity salesperson said, “The average lifespan for an inverter is between 12 and 15 years. However, even if you buy out the system 5 years down the line, we will still cover the cost of a new inverter (around $1,000.)"

Question: Does that mean they will just include in a new inverter when I buy the system?

[Severum88]

You can do better......

PM sent. Shop around some more and don't jump in too fast. You can easily beat that price and terms on a PPA/Lease.

Severum

[Ian S]

I am a little bit further along in the SolarCity process--and I am about to sign a contract with them for a 20-year Power Purchase Agreement (PPA).

This thread is a perfect opportunity for me to ask this question: Does anyone know of a "SolarCity user group” in which we can share info and concerns. If such a group does not exist, would it be a good idea to create such a group on solarpaneltalk.com?

SolarCity makes a big deal about how transparent they are about their contracts:
<http://www.solarcity.com/pressreleases/164/steal-our-contracts!.aspx>
<http://www.solarcity.com/media-center/top-5-solar-contract-tips.aspx>

I am not too worried about selling the house mid-lease. There are plenty of options should that happen.

Here are the terms of their PPA offer...Question: Does anyone know if either of these things negotiable?:
• 15.80¢ per kWh
• 2.9% rate increase per year (escalator)

As yankeeboy mentioned, with a PPA you have the opportunity to buy the system after 5 years…

The Solarcity salesperson said, "So at that point, 5 years down the line- we will sell it to you at the Fair Market Value per a third party, meaning I’m not entirely sure what the depreciated value would be. We do it through a third party so that all of us (you and SolarCity are protected and there is no bias)."

Question: Can I attempt to negotiate the eventual purchase price now?

The Solarcity salesperson said, “The average lifespan for an inverter is between 12 and 15 years. However, even if you buy out the system 5 years down the line, we will still cover the cost of a new inverter (around $1,000.)"

Question: Does that mean they will just include in a new inverter when I buy the system?

I would take everything said by a salesperson with a grain of salt. Look to the executed contract to see what is said about the inverter. Usually, the contract states the sale if any will be where is as is and that the buyer will be entitled to the balance if any of the various warranties. You will want to be certain those warranties are transferable. You probably can't negotiate a purchase price now because that's likely at odds with IRS rules on leasing. I suspect the FMV at that point will still be quite high and you'll have no leverage in contrast to the end of the 20 year lease when you'll have the leverage of telling them to remove it!

[bcroe]

And how much of a difference did you see with your electric bill
after making all those changes?

Amen to improving poor house insulation. The key to reducing electric use, is to
spending enough effort to really understanding where it is going. I reduced mine
by 2/3. The first thing here was to greatly reduce "phantom loads", power used by
things when they are "OFF". A hundred small things were collectively using 300W
24/7, or 2630 KWH a year. Bruce Roe

[hurnik]

I, too, am looking at solar and had SolarCity over. Their lease agreements much be different in each state/area? The PPA for me has NO option to purchase. I'm puzzled about the tax credits. I see someone posted here that SolarCity gets the 30% federal tax credit? But I can't find any such evidence via google. The quote they gave me (7.5 kwh system) for PPA was $12,200 not including the 25% NYS tax credit. However, since they didn't list Federal tax credit, perhaps they get to keep it???

Their website says one thing (you can call them and they'll give all the details, etc.) but the sales guy indicated that they don't do that anymore??

--Kevin
Albany, NY

[russ]

Their lease agreements much be different in each state/area? Sure - state laws and competition

Their website says one thing (you can call them and they'll give all the details, etc.) but the sales guy indicated that they don't do that anymore??

--Kevin
Albany, NY

Believe what is in writing - chances are about 100% the salesman is either full of BS or just doesn't know.

[silversaver]

Believe what is in writing - chances are about 100% the salesman is either full of BS or just doesn't know.

Not aways the salesperson, sometimes customers only listen to what they like to heard..... Lots of them like the idea of zero down and low monthly payment for getting a "free" solar + 30% Tax "rebate" from government.

[russ]

Not aways the salesperson, sometimes customers only listen to what they like to heard..... Lots of them like the idea of zero down and low monthly payment for getting a "free" solar + 30% Tax "rebate" from government.

Correct - also what are the questions the buyer asks. One can ask all the wrong questions because they want a particular answer.

A couple of years back one member long banned kept insisting that in NC he could connect DIY panels to the utility - he had called the utility and asked. Knowing the guy I can imagine how he asked the questions - so as to get the answer he wanted.

[Ian S]

I, too, am looking at solar and had SolarCity over. Their lease agreements much be different in each state/area? The PPA for me has NO option to purchase. I'm puzzled about the tax credits. I see someone posted here that SolarCity gets the 30% federal tax credit? But I can't find any such evidence via google. The quote they gave me (7.5 kwh system) for PPA was $12,200 not including the 25% NYS tax credit. However, since they didn't list Federal tax credit, perhaps they get to keep it???

Their website says one thing (you can call them and they'll give all the details, etc.) but the sales guy indicated that they don't do that anymore??

--Kevin
Albany, NY

AFAIK, the federal tax credit goes to the owner of the solar array. Someone with a PPA or lease is not the owner of the array. Usually that's how all the incentives are set up but NY may be the odd man out here and allow the homeowner to take the state tax credit whether or not they are the actual owner. With my prepaid lease in Arizona, I had to give up rights to all incentives.

[rocketcity]

You can be sure that (in the case of a lease or PPA) SolarCity keeps the federal tax credit for themselves.