Roof damage during installation

[J.P.M.]

I have tne same exact concrete tiles on my roof, that is also the main reason I skip micro inverters.(which don't really need them)

The "glue" job will do, but a solar system will be up there for at least 20 to 25 yrs after installation, will a "glue" job last that long? The solar companies doing the installation all year long, I'm sure they have tiles everywhere becasue they needed. I'm sure a "glue" job is lot quicker than replace the tiles. I wonder if they will "glue" the tiles on their own house or not?

My experience is the glue (probably some form of silicone caulk) job will last a while, depending on what's used and how thorough a job is done. But - it's obviously not right. One thing to perhaps keep in mind is that the paper under the tiles is what is supposed to provide most, if not all of the integrity against leaks, however, it's never a good thing to breach the any part of a roof. Caulk is always a temporary fix.

[J.P.M.]

Hi everyone, I'm new here. I searched past threads and didn't see anything related so please forgive me if I missed something!
I just had a 4kW system installed on a concrete tile roof. Before signing the contract I asked what would happen if the installers broke the relatively delicate tiles. He said they will replace any broken tiles and everything will be 100% perfect before they were done. They brought about 50 tiles with them and even charged me more per kW because they knew they would be breaking a lot of tiles. They finished their work a few days ago and I was assured there were no broken tiles.

Today I went up to look and there are about 20+ broken tiles and another 20 which are patched with some kind of silicone (40+ tiles are broken in total). The installer is saying that sealing broken tiles is completely OK and will not affect my roof's integrity. He is willing to seal the remaining cracked tiles but said they can't be replaced because it would require them to remove some solar panels and brackets to get to the tiles and that would be "cost-prohibitive". He said in some cases they would have to pull out 30+ roof tiles just to replace the one broken one. I have attached a few pictures.

My question: Is this common practice to break dozens of roof tiles and then seal them with silicone and call it a day? I don't know what the standard is with solar installations. I don't want to be too demanding if I am just kidding myself expecting them to replace all the broken tiles with new ones. But the house is relatively new and with that many "patched" tiles, how could I be sure a slow leak won't develop leading to mold or other water damage in the coming years?

Thanks for any advice!! I live in Northern California (FYI)
Mike

I bet it's common practice involving those customers who let the contractor get away with it. Sound like it may be time for some hardball, but I'd get my ducks lined up first..

Can you document that the tiles were not broken before the solar installation began ? What does the contract say ? How much would a roofing contractor charge to do the remediation ? Has it rained and has the roof leaked yet ? BBB ? Local media consumer affairs ? Some of a bunch of things to maybe consider before small claims court or other actions.

I try not to preach, but this is another good example of how the best warranty of a good job is a lot of due diligence by the owner from before the sale until after startup. Pictures before and during as well as after install can be very useful. FWIW, some folks are on the roof, out of the way, for the whole installation process. Caveat Emptor.

[silversaver]

I have tne same exact concrete tiles on my roof, that is also the main reason I skip micro inverters.(which don't really need them)

The "glue" job will do, but a solar system will be up there for at least 20 to 25 yrs after installation, will a "glue" job last that long? The solar companies doing the installation all year long, I'm sure they have tiles everywhere becasue they needed. I'm sure a "glue" job is lot quicker than replace the tiles. I wonder if they will "glue" the tiles on their own house or not?

[bando]

Some great advice and going through a similar experience RIGHT now.

In my case I'm going with a well known reputable installer in my area (Sullivan, which many here have used and one of the reasons why I decided to go with them). At any rate even in the contract language (I checked), in my case they warranty the roof work for 10 years against leaks. Now having a functional non-leaking roof doesn't necessarily mean a pristine looking roof with no tiles that were repaired by glue.

My entire roof is Spanish concrete tiles, now it's more durable than the flat concrete tiles which are real brittle but none the less I've had my share of headaches with broken tiles, already 10 cracks and I'm considered a small install 4.23KW (only 18 panels).

Worst one of the installers stepped in that black stuff they use to seal the bolts into the roof (under the tiles) and now have a number of "follow the footprints" on my roof -- argh!!!

I even got 21 extra tiles, yet when I went to the roof to check progress they went ahead and decided to just glue (okay if it's a clean single break -- fine, but some of them are multiple lines and the glue just looks real sloppy).

Maybe I'm too small of a job for them to care about so they want to get done as quick as possible (gluing cheaper than replacing) but still.

In reality:
- gluing a clean tile break does work (confirmed with my roofing company that it's a valid repair -- this goes into it works but ain't pretty pile -- if that's the case then duct tape probably work too!)
- talking to my builder the Spanish tiles are more for aesthetics (yes it does repeal rain) but the real protection is the sheeting that's underneath
- I have a tall two story roof and where the cracked tiles are no one will be able to tell unless you're walking on the roof (although this argument doesn't work too well with the wife since just because she can't see it, she'll still KNOW IT -- of course that's a separate issue entirely)
- most of the broken tiles and those "let's follow the footsteps" game will be covered by the panels -- again functionally having black footprints doesn't impact performance (that won't cause leaks) but again it goes with the point above (you know it's there). In fact my wife is pretty upset about the tile cracks that I didn't even want to bring up the footprint or think she'll probably loose it.

I'm actually beginning to think that maybe going with the other installer which is ALSO a roofing company might have been a better bet and at least they know how to handle roofs (not cause damage and know how to fix them if they do). But owell, as they said in "Harold and Kumar" we already gone to far to turn back.

I'm writing to my project manager to see what they'll say. Technically in the contract they just warranty against any functional roof damage for 10 years, nothing about aesthetics (not sure if any of them do have that language in the contract). The language also specifically says "will replace or repair at its sole discretion any item it determines to be faulty as a result of errors and/or omissions on the part of <installer company name>"

So we'll see, supposedly they have some lurkers on this forum so I do imagine they do care about their quality reputation so hoping they will make good.

Right now also have my landscape project going on so between that and the solar hard to babysit both. Since landscaping everyone will see, I've been concentrating on that.

Yeah another one to add to the tips: don't try to have too many house projects going on at once otherwise you won't be able to monitor them at the level you want.

For now subscribing to the philosophy of you "need to crack some eggs to make an omelette". I'm just hoping they don't break any more....<sigh>.

Just some of the pictures of the wonderful glue used to repair my broken tiles:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tcalv19hujsmomd/Tile-IMG_1397.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3n418ueb42xlkc4/Tile-IMG_1399.JPG

Legally and contractually don't really see anything they are doing wrong, it's just more about the quality and care of the work. A bit surprising as others on this forum have used this company with great praise.

More tips:
- If you care about how your roof tiles look then make sure you really understand the expectation during your installation and get that in writing
- Know your tiles and how brittle they are, this will give you an idea of the level of "damage" to expect during install
- Procure your extra tiles AND paint ahead of time (you need to supply the materials unless it's specifically written in the contract)
- Again if you care how your roof looks, regularly check the progress and get ON the roof, don't take their word for it (it's not their house, it's yours). If you really care then get up there to inspect (do it before, when they do the brackets and rails, before they install the panels, and after they install the panels).

they broke some of our flat concrete tiles as expected, although not many. the flat concrete is pretty strong. in any case, they did get replacements, although they said the exact tile was no longer being made (house was built in 2000). they had something similar in color, but the coating on the tile had a sheen to it that we do not have. needless to say, there was some variation and it was noticeable when you are talking about a large roof section and one or two tiles are just "off". when i noticed it, i asked them to take an original tile in a non conspicuous area and then put the "replacement" tile there where it's not noticeable to people on the ground (ours is a 1 story home). the crew was great and actually put any replacement tiles under the array or somewhere else (behind a chimney, etc.) and left only original tiles visible.

i can see that one of your cracked tiles is going under the array, so i wouldn't mind about those, but if it really bothers you have them do the above. BUT i would say that with those So Cal S shaped spanish tiles , it's very hard to not break them and walking on them any more than needed could result in more cracks in other areas. so i am not sure if it's worth the risk especially if the cracks are already not noticeable.

[PenguinSolar]

Thank you all so much for your advice, it is very helpful. I did have a discussion with the installer today and he has agreed to replace the broken and "repaired" tiles, but who will do it is another matter. I want a professional roofer to handle it, but that gets very tricky because most of the solar panels will have to be removed for that to happen. The roofer will not want to touch the panels, of course. Now I am no expert, but I am guessing that to do this right with all the broken corners and under the panels...this is a BIG expensive job. It's going to require a roofer and solar guys to remove all the panels and some brackets. I'm obviously worried how this will all turn out and this is a lot more than I signed on for.

And, yes, the work was inspected and passed. I don't think the inspector cares about the condition of my roof but in whether the installation was up to code. Broken tiles are not a code violation. I also have an arbitration clause in my contract, so I assume I can't sue him if he reneges on the promised repairs.

Some things I have learned so far from this experience:
1. Hire solar installers that have their own crew. The company I went with sub-contracts the work to "professional solar installers" and they install for many different companies in the area. Apparently this is common.There is little accountability this way. They just want to get paid for a job and get out of there.
2. Take pictures of your roof before installation and then inspect your roof after the job is done, preferably with the installer present.
3. Make sure your contract talks specifically about damage to your house during installation. The roof is one thing, but what if they broke a window with their ladder, bent your gutters or damaged landscaping?? That is nowhere in my 8 page fine-print contract. It should be discussed and added in there.

That's it for now. If anyone has any further advice, I would love to hear it.

Some great advice and going through a similar experience RIGHT now.

In my case I'm going with a well known reputable installer in my area (Sullivan, which many here have used and one of the reasons why I decided to go with them). At any rate even in the contract language (I checked), in my case they warranty the roof work for 10 years against leaks. Now having a functional non-leaking roof doesn't necessarily mean a pristine looking roof with no tiles that were repaired by glue.

My entire roof is Spanish concrete tiles, now it's more durable than the flat concrete tiles which are real brittle but none the less I've had my share of headaches with broken tiles, already 10 cracks and I'm considered a small install 4.23KW (only 18 panels).

Worst one of the installers stepped in that black stuff they use to seal the bolts into the roof (under the tiles) and now have a number of "follow the footprints" on my roof -- argh!!!

I even got 21 extra tiles, yet when I went to the roof to check progress they went ahead and decided to just glue (okay if it's a clean single break -- fine, but some of them are multiple lines and the glue just looks real sloppy).

Maybe I'm too small of a job for them to care about so they want to get done as quick as possible (gluing cheaper than replacing) but still.

In reality:
- gluing a clean tile break does work (confirmed with my roofing company that it's a valid repair -- this goes into it works but ain't pretty pile -- if that's the case then duct tape probably work too!)
- talking to my builder the Spanish tiles are more for aesthetics (yes it does repeal rain) but the real protection is the sheeting that's underneath
- I have a tall two story roof and where the cracked tiles are no one will be able to tell unless you're walking on the roof (although this argument doesn't work too well with the wife since just because she can't see it, she'll still KNOW IT -- of course that's a separate issue entirely)
- most of the broken tiles and those "let's follow the footsteps" game will be covered by the panels -- again functionally having black footprints doesn't impact performance (that won't cause leaks) but again it goes with the point above (you know it's there). In fact my wife is pretty upset about the tile cracks that I didn't even want to bring up the footprint or think she'll probably loose it.

I'm actually beginning to think that maybe going with the other installer (PetersenDean) which is ALSO a roofing company might have been a better bet and at least they know how to handle roofs (not cause damage and know how to fix them if they do) - they were only about $.30/watt more. But owell, as they said in "Harold and Kumar" we already gone to far to turn back.

I'm writing to my project manager to see what they'll say. Technically in the contract they just warranty against any functional roof damage for 10 years, nothing about aesthetics (not sure if any of them do have that language in the contract). The language also specifically says "will replace or repair at its sole discretion any item it determines to be faulty as a result of errors and/or omissions on the part of Sullivan Solar Power" -- so technically they are not obligated to replace a broken tile.

So we'll see, supposedly they have some lurkers on this forum so I do imagine they do care about their quality reputation so hoping they will make good.

Right now also have my landscape project going on so between that and the solar hard to babysit both. Since landscaping everyone will see, I've been concentrating on that.

Yeah another one to add to the tips: don't try to have too many house projects going on at once otherwise you won't be able to monitor them at the level you want.

For now subscribing to the philosophy of you "need to crack some eggs to make an omelette". I'm just hoping they don't break any more....<sigh>.

Just some of the pictures of the wonderful glue used to repair my broken tiles:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tcalv19hujsmomd/Tile-IMG_1397.JPG

https://www.dropbox.com/s/3n418ueb42xlkc4/Tile-IMG_1399.JPG

Legally and contractually don't really see anything they are doing wrong, it's just more about the quality and care of the work. A bit surprising as others on this forum have used this company with great praise.

More tips:
- If you care about how your roof tiles look then make sure you really understand the expectation during your installation and get that in writing
- Know your tiles and how brittle they are, this will give you an idea of the level of "damage" to expect during install
- Procure your extra tiles AND paint ahead of time (you need to supply the materials unless it's specifically written in the contract)
- Again if you care how your roof looks, regularly check the progress and get ON the roof, don't take their word for it (it's not their house, it's yours). If you really care then get up there to inspect (do it before, when they do the brackets and rails, before they install the panels, and after they install the panels).

[bruno]

Looks pretty clean to me too.

We have a 8000-US and 3000tL . The 3000 has the 1500w plug. We actually could have used it a few weeks ago when there was a random outage during the day. Luckily it only lasted two hours.

Do you have 3 different orientations and hence why you need three inverters?

bando---

fyi, just sent you a pm....

[kad153]

Cool. I have one of those SMA 4000TL inverters myself in my configuration (along with a 7K one with transformer). They didn't wire out a power outlet from it for me, though. Didn't even mention that it was an option to me. I only learned about that functionality here on this forum. But it's no big deal. We rarely have outages here where we live anyway.

I assume that they ran the numbers through the Sunny Design Web site to show you that there should be no or minimal clipping even though the combined 3x4=12kw set of inverters is a little undersized for your 14.5 KW STC panel configuration?

My mistake above...they actually gave me a 5000, and 4000, and a 3000. Still adds up to 12k, but its not 3 4000s. Its a prepaid lease through CPF, where they guarantee output per year.

I believe the 5000 has 2 strings of 12 panels on it, the 4000 has a string of 12 and a string of 6, and the 3000 has 2 strings of 8 - I'm guessing because of my roof configuration. Most of my panels face east or west at a 30% pitch, with a few south facing. So yes, 3 orientations.

[bando]

Looks pretty clean to me too.

We have a 8000-US and 3000tL . The 3000 has the 1500w plug. We actually could have used it a few weeks ago when there was a random outage during the day. Luckily it only lasted two hours.

Do you have 3 different orientations and hence why you need three inverters?

[Volusiano]

Cool. I have one of those SMA 4000TL inverters myself in my configuration (along with a 7K one with transformer). They didn't wire out a power outlet from it for me, though. Didn't even mention that it was an option to me. I only learned about that functionality here on this forum. But it's no big deal. We rarely have outages here where we live anyway.

I assume that they ran the numbers through the Sunny Design Web site to show you that there should be no or minimal clipping even though the combined 3x4=12kw set of inverters is a little undersized for your 14.5 KW STC panel configuration?

[kad153]

The white box on top is my alarm system panel - sorry should have mentioned that before. The little grouping of wires to the left of the main panel is for my phone lines (I have to make changes each time I switch between Direct TV and Verizon to Cablevision Optimum).

Everything else is from my Solar installation. The small little box to the right of the main panel is the wireless connection between the inverters and my router. Not really yet sure what anything else is They tell me they will explain it all once the install is complete.

Yes, these are the SMA transformerless inverters that have an outlet I can use during an outage. I believe I got 3 4000s, to go along with my 58 ReneSola 250W Mono Panels.

[SunEagle]

Looks very neat and clean and professionally done to me, too. I wonder what the 2 boxes above the sub circuit panel (just to the right of the main panel from our view) are for.

Also, it looks like these inverters have a power outlet on each of them. I'm guessing they have the feature that provides backup power (through those outlets) in case you have a power outage, right?

The bottom looks like a small transformer and the top is some type of control system.

[Volusiano]

That's correct...appreciate the responses.

Here are the inverters, sub panel, bypass/shutoff, etc. they setup in my currently unfinished basement. Looks neat and clean to me, but I've never really seen how it is supposed to be setup, so let me know what you think.

Left side - http://tinypic.com/r/33tjayq/5
Right side - http://tinypic.com/r/29wobc9/5

Looks very neat and clean and professionally done to me, too. I wonder what the 2 boxes above the sub circuit panel (just to the right of the main panel from our view) are for.

Also, it looks like these inverters have a power outlet on each of them. I'm guessing they have the feature that provides backup power (through those outlets) in case you have a power outage, right?

[kad153]

That's correct...appreciate the responses.

Here are the inverters, sub panel, bypass/shutoff, etc. they setup in my currently unfinished basement. Looks neat and clean to me, but I've never really seen how it is supposed to be setup, so let me know what you think.

Left side - http://tinypic.com/r/33tjayq/5
Right side - http://tinypic.com/r/29wobc9/5

[Volusiano]

I believe the "charred wood" Volusiano is referring to is really the aluminum surface of an air duct insulation.

Ah, yes, that's what it is. Sorry that didn't occur to me. The reflection tricked me into thinking it was some kind of panel.

[SunEagle]

No crack in the beams...I'm talking about the crack in the wood of the roof (going from right to left across the picture). Maybe its not a big deal if its not standing out to you.

Not sure what you mean about wood that is dark and charred. The light up there isn't great, but its a new house (5 years old) and no damage up there.

There does seem to be a crack that runs along the wood. Not sure how it got there. You might be able to caulk it with some type of wood sealant. There is something in a can that can be sprayed out which will fill a gap with foam and then harden.

I believe the "charred wood" Volusiano is referring to is really the aluminum surface of an air duct insulation.