Best SunPower Panel Price in NorCal

[J.P.M.]

What kind of difference on warranty please?

QUOTE=bigroccrek;94280]Volusiano, I think you jump to conclusions. I WANT the sunpower system because it is a high quality system, has the best warranty I have found and as a side benefit it looks good. I didn't say I wanted it because "everybody else he knows wants it", I merely pointed out that I have other references as to the quality, workmanship, and the installers reputation. I had quotes for other manufacturers systems and yes they were cheaper......but not that much cheaper and their warranty was not anywhere close to Sunpower. Why do you hate on Sunpower? Why is everyone who does their research, does comparisons and then chooses Sunpower wrong??? Oh and as you yourself pointed out Sunpower is "highly regarded".http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/images/icons/icon7.png

[/QUOTE]
Respectfully:

1.) My experience is that oftentimes a lot of "other references" are from people who bought S.P and are clueless about solar energy, or are dealers w/ skin in the game. That said, the warranty and quality is good. So is a Mercedes. A Toyota may also be fit for purpose.
2.) If your best quote for 327's is $5.16/Watt, I'd look around. Smaller systems using 327's sold for $4.50/Watt or less in SO.CA.. Check the CSI database. They do exist. Maybe 2 inverters would bump that a bit but not by $5K.
3.) If, as you say, other panel systems are only 10% less, something sounds really wrong w/ their price. $4.64 for LG, Kyocera, Canadian solar, Solarworld, etc. is way out. Or, perhaps, other vendors have seen the popularity of S.P, justified or not, and may be trying to raise their prices to take advantage of the inflated prices and popularity of S.P. $3.40 -$3.75 may be more like it. Don't take my word for it. Ask around or again, check the CSI database.
4.) I think I've done my research too, as have others here who have similar opinions to mine w/respect to S.P. pricing. All you say about quality and warranty I agree with. (The appearance, BTW of 327's is about the same as any other panel, they ain't flat black). The big issue for many folks is that S.P. panels are just too much money for what they deliver, unless you're cramped for space.
5.)If you're happy with your choice - that's all that counts. It's still a free country, thank goodness, and it's your money to leave on the table or do with as you please, but opinions do vary.

[silversaver]

I understand what your saying, however at least in my area the quotes I have received for Sunpower systems are not that much more expensive than the others (maybe 10%)? So what it comes down to is quality, warranty, and the installer. and so far the Sunpower system seems to be the answer, at least for me. This system will be here until I sell the house in maybe 10 years. Based on all of my analysis (Engineer......) the Sunpower system will provide for all of my electrical needs and will be with 5% - 7% of what I pay SCE per month, on average (assuming no SCE price increases which seems highly unlikely) and by paying just a little more each month in seven years It will be paid for and I will be free of Edison, kind of................

Don't listen to those people, they don't know the real value of SunPower. Just sign the contract and wake up with a big smile on your face every monring that you now own a "Sun Power". The best solar system!!

[bigroccrek]

My understanding is that SunPower offers a combined product and production warranty of 25 years. Other manufacturers usually offer 10 years product warranty and 25 years production warranty. So Sunpower does seem to offer the best warranty out there.

If Sunpower is only 10% more than other panels in general, then of course it would be more justifiable. But generally that's not the case and Sunpower quotes usually is a lot more than 10%. It's 10% for bigroccrek because maybe his other quotes are still not low enough? I'm sure it varies based on individual and maybe locality too. But I think if it's universally only 10% more across the board, we wouldn't be having this discussion.



Best warranty is nice, but not nice enough for that much price difference. Not when most brand name panels are already pretty reliable anyway.

Quality and workmanship, yes, but that's not exclusive only to Sunpower and not other brands.

Better look -> subjective.

Installer reputation -> how is this even relevant to the discussion? Does Sunpower guarantee that the installer is reputable and will be in business forever?

Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Sunpower. I just found it weird that so many people want it and are willing to pay a big price premium for it even though they don't have any issue with roof space at all (assuming that the price premium is a lot more than 10% for the most part).

My point on installer reputation is based on sunpower quotes I received from other Sunpower dealers (2 others) which indeed were significantly more $$$$. One dealer insisted on removing my cement tile roof from my house and replacing it with a composite roof. He wouldn't come off of that even though I have a 1500 square foot shop with no shade which has a 200 Amp Sub panel tied to the main panel. As far as the warranty goes Volusiano is correct about Sunpower's warranty (SunPower offers a combined product and production warranty of 25 years). The installer adds a Labor warranty to the Sunpower warranty in writing for the first 10 years, meaning he will do the work and be the intermediary with Sunpower. That means if there is a problem his time and effort is also covered, I realize if he goes out of business then there goes that part of the warranty, but no other installer/company offered me that coverage.

[bigroccrek]

Respectfully:

1.) My experience is that oftentimes a lot of "other references" are from people who bought S.P and are clueless about solar energy, or are dealers w/ skin in the game. That said, the warranty and quality is good. So is a Mercedes. A Toyota may also be fit for purpose.
2.) If your best quote for 327's is $5.16/Watt, I'd look around. Smaller systems using 327's sold for $4.50/Watt or less in SO.CA.. Check the CSI database. They do exist. Maybe 2 inverters would bump that a bit but not by $5K.
3.) If, as you say, other panel systems are only 10% less, something sounds really wrong w/ their price. $4.64 for LG, Kyocera, Canadian solar, Solarworld, etc. is way out. Or, perhaps, other vendors have seen the popularity of S.P, justified or not, and may be trying to raise their prices to take advantage of the inflated prices and popularity of S.P. $3.40 -$3.75 may be more like it. Don't take my word for it. Ask around or again, check the CSI database.
4.) I think I've done my research too, as have others here who have similar opinions to mine w/respect to S.P. pricing. All you say about quality and warranty I agree with. (The appearance, BTW of 327's is about the same as any other panel, they ain't flat black). The big issue for many folks is that S.P. panels are just too much money for what they deliver, unless you're cramped for space.
5.)If you're happy with your choice - that's all that counts. It's still a free country, thank goodness, and it's your money to leave on the table or do with as you please, but opinions do vary.[/QUOTE]


Thanks I really do value all of the opinions I have received. Yes there are cheaper panels/systems but from everything I've looked at it my mind the SP system just seems like the Mercedes as you say but I like the quality, I like the installer, I like the warranty and really they aren't that much more. In the end I look at the cost and I weigh it against what I just paid for my wife's Hyundai Sante Fe.....................the SP system is cheaper!!

[Naptown]

In the end I look at the cost and I weigh it against what I just paid for my wife's Hyundai Sante Fe.....................the SP system is cheaper!!


And the ROI on Sunpower
is soooooo much better

[silversaver]

I'll rather have my wife driving a Mercedes and use cheaper panels on the roof. It will cost you lot more money if something happen.

Driving a Hundai and using SunPower for solar? interesting. yes, you do get better ROI and it is sooo much better

[OvertheSun]

J.P.M. I think you've said you have SunPower panels, yourself, primarily for space reasons. I apologize if this is incorrect. Are you happy with them? Has their performance met your expectations? I'm very interested to hear how the high efficiency panels stack up in the real world.

As someone who doesn't have an inside track on which panels and manufacturers are the best, I do put a premium on quality and reputation. I drive a Toyota, but I'd probably buy a Tesla if I had the cash.

[J.P.M.]

J.P.M. I think you've said you have SunPower panels, yourself, primarily for space reasons. I apologize if this is incorrect. Are you happy with them? Has their performance met your expectations? I'm very interested to hear how the high efficiency panels stack up in the real world.

As someone who doesn't have an inside track on which panels and manufacturers are the best, I do put a premium on quality and reputation. I drive a Toyota, but I'd probably buy a Tesla if I had the cash.

In order of your questions/comments: You are correct. No apology necessary. Quite. Exceeded estimate. The rest take a bit more.

Now, since I've been flaming about Sunpower and costs like Godzilla, perhaps some explanation to readers/followers of this forum may be in order.

1.) I changed careers in 1975 and got a university degree, BSME, because I got interested in solar energy. I tried to take my own advice and learn the answers before I asked the questions. I have not looked back. I believe I learned a few things along the way - probably enough to be dangerous to myself, not only about solar energy engineering, but related areas such as financial analysis and engineering economics. I also moved from Buffalo to San Diego in 1995.

2.) I bought Sunpower about 5 months ago after about a 7 yrs. study of the solar electric side of solar energy as it could be applied to my personal residence, including a lot of research into SDG & E electric rates, past, present and guessing at future and the social context of those expected future changes..

3.) I did the preliminary system sizing, design, layout and other engineering tasks myself, based in needs, goals and objectives I determined.

4.) I formally requested and got bids from reputable contractors for two types of panels: Sunpower 327's and LG 260's. I had already determined the system size(s) and constructed the bid requests for max. flexibility.

5.) The system size was determined by 2 things: The most cost effective return based on a life cycle analysis of my expected energy costs over the next 12 years and, in something like 3-5 yrs., +/- some, an electric vehicle that will burn through about 3500-4000 kWhrs./yr. Right now, I'm oversized.

6.) As hard as I tried, I couldn't make the LG's produce the required output w/ the space I had. I could have reduced the size. BUT, and besides, I'm retired, I'm not going to live forever, I've spent most of my adult life thinking about this and I'm still not looking back. Also, I can also afford it. LG would have been MUCH more cost effective. 18 of them would have cost me $17035. The 16 S.P. 327's cost me $23544. Output would have been similar (on a kWhrs/yr. per D.C. Watt basis), the S.P.s a bit (2-3%) more/yr. So far after about 2 months of watching things like a hawk, the 16 327's in zip 92026 will likely produce about 9000-9100 kwhrs./yr., or about 1.7 to 1.72 kWhrs./D.C. Watt per year, new and clean - higher than I estimated using software I've written and SAM by about 5% when new and clean. Azimuth 195 deg. Tilt, 18.75 deg.

7.) My wife got me an early Christmas present - a Davis weather station w/ a solar sensor. Between the S.P. monitoring and the Davis, my guess is that the S.P. is producing about 4-6% or so better than a new system should. Either that or the Davis is over predicting. However, a neighbor about a mile away w/an identical instrument gets similar readings in the solar input, adding some confidence to that #.

So, bottom line, I can stand accused, probably w/ some justification of talking the talk but not walking the walk. I guess objectively, I'm guilty of that. However, I stand firm in my opinion that Sunpower equipment, while a real Caddy and very good stuff, for many people and situations cannot be justified solely on a cost/ benefit basis. I also, probably somewhat arrogantly, am of the opinion that most people, not as fortunate as me to have gained some knowledge and experience in the areas helpful in making an informed decision about solar energy, buy S.P., completely and ignorantly unaware of other options, and like sheep, get shorn and walk away happy, but screwed and clueless. I guess this really is a great country. You can get screwed blued and tattooed and still be happy.

[Volusiano]

As far as the warranty goes Volusiano is correct about Sunpower's warranty (SunPower offers a combined product and production warranty of 25 years). The installer adds a Labor warranty to the Sunpower warranty in writing for the first 10 years, meaning he will do the work and be the intermediary with Sunpower. That means if there is a problem his time and effort is also covered, I realize if he goes out of business then there goes that part of the warranty, but no other installer/company offered me that coverage.

Something doesn't sound right with this. Are you sure the Sunpower warranty doesn't include labor for up to 25 years? Below is a snippet I saw on the Sunpower warranty statement that says they include labor (item iii) and even shipping (item i and ii).

If your installer only offered you labor warranty for the first 10 years of your Sunpower warranty, and no other installer offered you that coverage, something fishy is going on.

In the case of a valid claim for PV Modules installed by SunPower, an affiliate of SunPower or an authorized SunPower installer,
the Limited Warranty covers:
(i) reasonable and customary transportation costs for return of the PV Modules;
(ii) reshipment of any repaired or replaced PV Modules; and
(iii) costs associated with installation, removal or reinstallation of the PV Modules.

[OvertheSun]

Thank you!

Thank you very much, J.P.M. Your posts are always very helpful, especifally since you are in a similar climate. I'm actually your neighbor - in zip 92127.

I, too have been interested in solar for many years - I still have books that I bought in the late 70s and 80s, but my career took me in other directions. It's only recently that I've been able to think about it seriously. My renewed interest comes after I saw some of our electric bills from this past summer and knew that there was a 30-40% rate increase coming in September. The bills were outrageous to begin with and 30-40% over outrageous would be ridiculous. My husband complained a lot, but wouldn't do anything, because he was caught in the trap of we're already paying too much for energy, we can't spend any more. Plus, I think he believed that everyone's bill was that high and it's just the price you pay for living in Southern California. NOT!

I had been making small changes for many years, but it has now become something of an obsession to get to zero net energy by the end of 2016. I took over the electric bills and have made a lot of progress, insisting that any savings I manage to achieve are pumped back into more energy efficiency improvements. I have a little different take on the ROI, though. It's more intuitive than analytical, and I realize the limitations of my thinking. I do look at how much the payback will be and over what length of time, and while I want to get as much bang for the buck as I can, I'm looking at what we would have paid SDG&E over the next 3-4 years had I not done anything and using that as my budget for improvements. If it gets me to net zero, I'll will consider it a success and money well spent.

I had an energy audit and even though the house was only built in 2002 and met the standards for air duct sealing and A/C SEER of the day, they identified the HVAC system as wasting huge amounts of energy for various reasons. So we just put in the first half (second floor) of a new, uber efficient HVAC system. It was quite expensive (at least I think so), and I'm not completly sure if it will actually pay for itself in energy savings, or if it does, how long it will take. That's partly because it is hard to apportion all the costs that contributed to heating and cooling in my house. The lights were raising the temp significantly, which we were using A/C to counter. I knew that was going on, but I was really surprised to see how much our bill went down when we replaced incandescents with LEDs - beyond what the Wattage differences predicted by several fold. Also, my office got so hot from computer equipment, etc. that I had to install a room air conditioner to be able to work even with the central A/C on! Now I don't have that problem and no one is complaining that they are too hot or too cold. I have 6 separate zones upstairs alone. Until this system came out, I was always told I couldn't have a separate thermostat in every room because typical blowers couldn't adapt to having 4 or 5 of 6 dampers being shut off while the rest are open. This one has a modulating blower, heater and condenser, all in communication with each other and the zone controllers, and could have up to 8 independently controlled zones per outside A/C unit. Ironically, it does so by using an inverter to convert AC to DC, so when I get solar, I'll be converting DC to AC and then back again to DC to run the HVAC. It can actually provide air conditioning to some rooms and heat to others - not exactly at the same time, but alternatingly in the same 10 or 20 minute span. So, I spent a lot of money, but I got everything I've ever wanted and then some!

With solar, I'm still trying to figure out what my goals are or should be, and this board has been immeasurably helpful. But I do know that I've never been unhappy with something that exceeds my expectations of quality, efficiency and dependability. I still have a way to go before I get down to a usage level that I can realistically think about covering with solar - but I'm getting close and that wasn't even remotely possible before. It would have taken all the roofs on my block to generate the amount of electricity we were using 6 months ago! LOL! So I'm hoping to learn enough to make the best choices for me before 2016.

I've set that deadline primarily because of the federal tax credit expiration, but also because of other changes around that time. The property tax exemption will expire then, and as I understand it, residential customers with solar PV systems put in use by 12-31-16 will have the option of keeping their current net metering agreements for the life of system, or switch to the new net metering contract that is to be drated by the CPUC. Who knows if that will be better or worse. Some of the language in AB 327 suggests that there could be better rate options or at least more choices. Like TOU rates, which could benefit solar customers, but which the utilities can't require, at least in the short term. They also have to disclose what the rate would have been during the preceding year before switching you to TOU (I think that could have something to do with changes in SDGE's energy usage software last month). If the current net metering contract is grandfathered in for the life of the system, SunPower may have a distinct advantage over other panels. I haven't read the current SDG&E contract, but I would think there would be a strong argument that that term should be at least the 25 year length of the SunPower's panel warranty. Depending on how things go with the CPUC, that could be very valuable. I almost jumped on solar before HVAC just because CCSE has more money for rebates now, but the funds may be exhausted in a year or two. I probably would have, against conventional wisdom, had the contractor not sweetened the deal with some attractive terms.

So much to learn; so little time...

[eugenep]

36 inch to boundary

What is everyone's opinion on the affect of the 36" rule on Sunpower's popularity? On my installation, I only wanted to use a single roof installation, and my general contractor tried to create a solar system, but he couldn't use Sunpower. He couldn't do one without using 2 additional roofs, and so, I chose the Sunpower system.

I had to get my system into permit before Jan 1 so that I didn't need to pass the 36" to eaves, valleys, etc, and even with the additional 6' of space, other vendors couldn't get the modest sized solar installation that I wanted. I am getting 21 x-345 panels.

It will be interesting to see what will happen next year.

[J.P.M.]

What is everyone's opinion on the affect of the 36" rule on Sunpower's popularity? On my installation, I only wanted to use a single roof installation, and my general contractor tried to create a solar system, but he couldn't use Sunpower. He couldn't do one without using 2 additional roofs, and so, I chose the Sunpower system.

I had to get my system into permit before Jan 1 so that I didn't need to pass the 36" to eaves, valleys, etc, and even with the additional 6' of space, other vendors couldn't get the modest sized solar installation that I wanted. I am getting 21 x-345 panels.

It will be interesting to see what will happen next year.

Speaking as a former salesperson, if I was a S.P. dealer, I'd use the lack of clear direction from governing bodies, at least in San Diego county, as another tool in my toolbox to convince people my wares are more fit for purpose, even if not absolutely true. If space limitations do come to pass, perhaps one advantage might be that gross oversizing of systems by predatory peddlers (a small minority of the total # of dealers of course) will be a bit harder to pull off.

[bando]

What is everyone's opinion on the affect of the 36" rule on Sunpower's popularity? On my installation, I only wanted to use a single roof installation, and my general contractor tried to create a solar system, but he couldn't use Sunpower. He couldn't do one without using 2 additional roofs, and so, I chose the Sunpower system.

I had to get my system into permit before Jan 1 so that I didn't need to pass the 36" to eaves, valleys, etc, and even with the additional 6' of space, other vendors couldn't get the modest sized solar installation that I wanted. I am getting 21 x-345 panels.

It will be interesting to see what will happen next year.

i think the 36" rule will bode well for SP. it would have affected our house immensely. being that we have multiple roof slopes and sections, the 36" rule would simply have created a real hot mess on the roof in order to fit the 48 panels we needed. so we would have likely had to go with SP if we wanted to keep it neat and organized. i have seen some other homes with older PV systems with panels staggered all over the place and that was something we just really wanted to avoid for aesthetic reasons.

[eugenep]

Solar dealer

Can you tell me which sunpower installer this is? Was the $4 range before incentives? So far, I've had ProVoltz, Clean Solar, Freedom Solar, and this other company give me quotations. Clean Solar is the best so far. The $ DC/Watt for my 3k KW system is about $3.70 /DC Watt AFTER incentives.

Sorry, I was on vacation and I didn't see this. I am using cobalt. They seemed to be the most knowledgeable about my town, meaning they know that the 36 inch rule isn't being enforced this year. A big deal for me. Others were saying it is on the application, and it is, but cobalt is doing many installations in my town, and it is currently not enforced. Also, they were the best with regards to communicating with me. Clean solar was also good from that standpoint.

[eugenep]

Tax csi database

If you are set on Sunpower, I'd suggest combing the CSI database to see where the low prices are and where you need to be pricewise before you pull the trigger. 335's and 345's appear to be at a premium on top of S.P's already high price, but, looking in the database for the 12/11 rendition, it looks like 335's or 345's Watt can be had for around $4.75-$5.00/D.C. Watt. 327's are probably still around for about $4.50/D.C. Watt if you snoop around some. All prices before incentives. Other good, non S.P. stuff can be had for $3.40-$3.60 +/- some.

Does the csi database include sales tax?