New With Questions

[littleharbor]

Ksnax and others,

Thanks for posting up possible solution rather than limitations.

I'm frustrated in that I feel its crazy to have a 9kW array that is absolutely useless if the grid goes down.

Yes I want it all, I want to offset some of my electrical bill and I want some TEOTWAWKI potential.

Otherwise this whole thing is just a crystal gripping, tree hugging, vegan, save the world, bunch of feel good about my carbon footprint BS.

How is anyone NOT thinking about this when spending this amount of money on a solar system?

"Yep put those solar panels on the roof works great as long as we're getting power from the power company" WTF. "Reduce energy dependence they say" how is that exactly? My energy dependence is still 100% based on the power company sending me power to allow my array to work.

My wife is pretty excited about the whole thing and likely we'll move forward with a grid tied system Maybe with the LG battery depends on cost. The battery is ~$6500 but one company said it would add $11-12K to the cost seems like too much to mount a battery on the other side of the wall where the inverted is located. Must be pricey bolts or the 3' or wire they will need. Sounds like a scam to me. If you use the StorEdge and the LG battery are there even any other components?

OK, smart solar people:

TEOTWAWKI happens BAM!!! zombies, pandemic, whatever the grid is not coming back up. What is your plan for the kW's of energy sitting dormant on your roof?

your awesome diesel, natural gas, propane, gas, genset will be out of fuel faster than you think. Are you content to have you PV array just sit there looking expensive?

I think having a potential output of 400v to a battery is a liability if you could have 48V with a different inverter type.

I know this is a what-if so go with it.

Tell me you'll collect all the car batteries you can find and figure out how to charge them. Something to give me hope. You plan to wire 1,234 iphone batteries up in your basement so you can watch movies on your flat screen while repelling the zombie horde.

Some of you must have thought of the what-ifs and how the huge solar investment will help.

Thanks

Sounds like you need a full off grid system. Going to cost more in the long run than grid tied but you will have dependable power regardless what happens to the world as we know it. Full on Armageddon, not so sure. The biggest drawback with off grid is having to replace those pesky batteries every 4 - 6 years. Doubtful they are going to be cheaper when you do.

[bcroe]

I'm frustrated in that I feel its crazy to have a 9kW array that is
absolutely useless if the grid goes down.

Some of you must have thought of the what-ifs and how the huge solar investment will help.
Thanks

If you want to be able run some appliances with solar during long term outages, better
start with a list and start designing an off grid system. This will be a complex, costly,
high maintenance system, of which panels are only a part. It will be a big money loser
when the grid is up, and it will quit when the batteries are worn out.

Several decades ago I bought a generator for maybe 1% the price of my solar system.
Since them it has been used 4 times, only once for more than a day, kept the well and
furnace operational. After you do the above exercise, you will realize solar would be a
terrible backup system. Get over it. Bruce Roe

[sgtgeo]

It's just one Yeti, provided as an example of what can be done, but I think you guys provide a realistic perspective on the limitations. I certainly didn't buy mine as a freezer backup, but it works better than none at all.

I think you are attempting to parse the difference between something that is portable against a fixed installation however. There simply is no comparison cost wise. My point was ease.

Ksnax and others,

Thanks for posting up possible solution rather than limitations.

I'm frustrated in that I feel its crazy to have a 9kW array that is absolutely useless if the grid goes down.

Yes I want it all, I want to offset some of my electrical bill and I want some TEOTWAWKI potential.

Otherwise this whole thing is just a crystal gripping, tree hugging, vegan, save the world, bunch of feel good about my carbon footprint BS.

How is anyone NOT thinking about this when spending this amount of money on a solar system?

"Yep put those solar panels on the roof works great as long as we're getting power from the power company" WTF. "Reduce energy dependence they say" how is that exactly? My energy dependence is still 100% based on the power company sending me power to allow my array to work.

My wife is pretty excited about the whole thing and likely we'll move forward with a grid tied system Maybe with the LG battery depends on cost. The battery is ~$6500 but one company said it would add $11-12K to the cost seems like too much to mount a battery on the other side of the wall where the inverted is located. Must be pricey bolts or the 3' or wire they will need. Sounds like a scam to me. If you use the StorEdge and the LG battery are there even any other components?

OK, smart solar people:

TEOTWAWKI happens BAM!!! zombies, pandemic, whatever the grid is not coming back up. What is your plan for the kW's of energy sitting dormant on your roof?

your awesome diesel, natural gas, propane, gas, genset will be out of fuel faster than you think. Are you content to have you PV array just sit there looking expensive?

I think having a potential output of 400v to a battery is a liability if you could have 48V with a different inverter type.

I know this is a what-if so go with it.

Tell me you'll collect all the car batteries you can find and figure out how to charge them. Something to give me hope. You plan to wire 1,234 iphone batteries up in your basement so you can watch movies on your flat screen while repelling the zombie horde.

Some of you must have thought of the what-ifs and how the huge solar investment will help.

Thanks

[Ksnax]

It's just one Yeti, provided as an example of what can be done, but I think you guys provide a realistic perspective on the limitations. I certainly didn't buy mine as a freezer backup, but it works better than none at all.

I think you are attempting to parse the difference between something that is portable against a fixed installation however. There simply is no comparison cost wise. My point was ease.

[Sunking]

One really easy backup plan for brief outages is a solar generator such as the Goal Zero Yeti. If all you really need to do is keep a refrigerator powered, a Yeti 1000 can do that almost indefinitely with several 100 Watt panels connected to it. If you have a garage door opener, plug that into it full time for a solid backup plan on that.

I've been running my garage freezer off my Yeti inverter 24/7 with just 200 Watts of panels plugged into it along with the AC charger. I'm able to switch it off of the grid connection for 5 hours a day at this time of year without going below 80% charge when the sun isn't shining. When the sun is shining, it stays topped up to 100%.

No, it is NOT the cheapest way to do battery backup, but again, really easy. (Plus I get to take it camping, which is the main reason I bought it.)

There is a much better, reliable, and less expensive way to do that. Been around for 60 years.

AC Charger > Battery > Inverter

No solar required.

[Mike90250]

OK you lead with a fridge, and now it's a freezer. Freezers take a fair amount less. 50w x 18 hours is 900wh. i suppose that's less than 1,000wh. Still stinks like funny numbers though.

Is a fridge involved here or just the freezer ? 1 yeti or 2 ? (one for each appliance ?)

[Ksnax]

Mike, I have run the numbers, and my Yeti 1000 will power my freezer for 18 hours solid at 50Wh (measured over two days) without the solar. So that is 18 additional hours of cold time AFTER the power goes out - guaranteed. This is not SHTF level backup, but certainly safely capable of handling the load during blackouts of up to a day or so without sun. It's probably not a 3-day solution unless the sun shines fully somewhere in the middle. (800W of panels can charge at 650Wh to top off the Yeti 1000 in a little over an hour and a half from dead.)

Most non-disaster blackouts don't last that long however, so it is more than adequate for a freezer.

My solution works for the parameters I stated.

[Mike90250]

One really easy backup plan for brief outages is a solar generator such as the Goal Zero Yeti. If all you really need to do is keep a refrigerator powered, a Yeti 1000 can do that almost indefinitely with several 100 Watt panels connected to it. If you have a garage door opener, plug that into it full time for a solid backup plan on that.

For your brief 5 hour outage, you don't need a backup, the fridge will stay cold.

An average fridge consumes about 1.4kwh daily. Several 100w panels cannot possibly keep up after the first 12 hours

I've been running my garage freezer off my Yeti inverter 24/7 with just 200 Watts of panels plugged into it along with the AC charger. I'm able to switch it off of the grid connection for 5 hours a day at this time of year without going below 80% charge when the sun isn't shining. When the sun is shining, it stays topped up to 100%.

Unplug the yeti from the grid for 3 days and see what your fridge does, with 200w of solar. Pretend there was an storm and throw a pile of leaves over half of one of the panels.

No, it is NOT the cheapest way to do battery backup, but again, really easy. (Plus I get to take it camping, which is the main reason I bought it.)

I double dog dare you to honestly report the results

[Ksnax]

One really easy backup plan for brief outages is a solar generator such as the Goal Zero Yeti. If all you really need to do is keep a refrigerator powered, a Yeti 1000 can do that almost indefinitely with several 100 Watt panels connected to it. If you have a garage door opener, plug that into it full time for a solid backup plan on that.

I've been running my garage freezer off my Yeti inverter 24/7 with just 200 Watts of panels plugged into it along with the AC charger. I'm able to switch it off of the grid connection for 5 hours a day at this time of year without going below 80% charge when the sun isn't shining. When the sun is shining, it stays topped up to 100%.

No, it is NOT the cheapest way to do battery backup, but again, really easy. (Plus I get to take it camping, which is the main reason I bought it.)

[Sunking]

The Sunny boy inverter does not have a battery backup option but a toy "secure power" marketing feature which is 2kw (used to be 1.5kw)
It is really UP TO 2kW and at any time may be only able to spit out a few watts and if the draw is higher it will trip out.

It still has a Transfer Switch and only provides very little power. Generator is the only way to go.

[ButchDeal]

I guess I should not have said "Long Term" because that got everyone thinking huge battery capacity etc.

I have have some new questions:

-While someone was early in this thread said the StorEdge converter WILL still be able to charge a compatible battery during a power grid outage there is little mention of this important capability in their literature. Why are they not pushing this feature of the StorEdge LG battery?

The battery and PV are on the same DC bus so yes the battery can charge from the optimizers as well as from the grid

-Why is the StorEdge only compatible with 2 batteries?
is it the 400V requirement compared to the more widespread 48V the reason?

There are very few 400V batteries (one really as the PowerWall 1 is no longer produced so just the LG Chem RESU10H now.

-When I said long term I meant a long term solution to have some energy production during the day weather permitting. If I could get 5000w out of a 9kW array with a battery for a good part of the day I could run a fridge/freezer long enough to keep stuff cold make ice etc. keep things charged, whatever. Can a smaller than poweewall size battery buffer the load during daylight production times. The sunny boy inverter is 1500w max on the secure l

LG offers a smaller 400v battery than their poweewall near-equalivent model. I wonder if it's StorEdge worthy.

I am a bit confused by the use of long term in your above statement.
The RESU7H is not as common in the US as the RESU10h.

The Sunny boy inverter does not have a battery backup option but a toy "secure power" marketing feature which is 2kw (used to be 1.5kw)
It is really UP TO 2kW and at any time may be only able to spit out a few watts and if the draw is higher it will trip out.

[sgtgeo]

I guess I should not have said "Long Term" because that got everyone thinking huge battery capacity etc.

I have have some new questions:

-While someone was early in this thread said the StorEdge converter WILL still be able to charge a compatible battery during a power grid outage there is little mention of this important capability in their literature. Why are they not pushing this feature of the StorEdge LG battery?

-Why is the StorEdge only compatible with 2 batteries?
is it the 400V requirement compared to the more widespread 48V the reason?

-When I said long term I meant a long term solution to have some energy production during the day weather permitting. If I could get 5000w out of a 9kW array with a battery for a good part of the day I could run a fridge/freezer long enough to keep stuff cold make ice etc. keep things charged, whatever. Can a smaller than poweewall size battery buffer the load during daylight production times. The sunny boy inverter is 1500w max on the secure l

LG offers a smaller 400v battery than their poweewall near-equalivent model. I wonder if it's StorEdge worthy.

Thanks

[J.P.M.]

SGT:

If you don't have net energy metering from your utility, then, at this time, if your lifestyle is remotely close to anything like the average U.S. household, and for most situations and lifestyles, there is not much chance of you getting a practical, much less cost effective residential PV system.

Also, at this time, it's unlikely you will be able to get a combination of PV coupled to a battery system that will meet all of your needs for a few days by itself (off grid) with anything close to cost effectiveness for less than a whole lot of $$.

Factoid: The average household in the U.S. uses about 12,000 kWh/yr. = ~ 33 kWh/day. I have no idea of your usage, but I'd respectfully suggest if you are considering what amounts to a PV/battery system to supply several days of usage to replace down grid power, you find out what your usage is and get a plan for emergency reductions. Reason: The single Tesla or LG battery has maybe 10-13 kWh or useful storage capacity +/- some. At $6,500 or so each, maybe 2 or more than likely 3 batteries, but likely multiple batteries gets expensive if one goal is to supply power off grid for emergencies or at other times for more than a few hours or so. That's in addition to the cost of the PV system.

Yes, there are tax credits/rebates available that may offset a lot of the cost of a single battery. Dirty secret: Most such deals, if available at all, apply to and stop after the first battery. Some homework is necessary to determine your situation with respect to such rebates/tax credits. Read the fine print. Innuendo in advertising is rampant and can easily lead to incorrect inferences and conclusions.

Check your usage and get a contingency plan/estimate for minimum usage requirements in an emergency.

There is a lot of thought to PV during power outages, but up until now it's mostly been about safety for those who might be restoring power while a bunch of distributed PV systems are sending unregulated power to the grid. I think the priorities are 110 % correct, but fixing the entire situation of may well involve systemic changes, and progress in that direction is slow. As Mike writes, some inverters do have some small capabilities ( ~ 1,500 W) when the sun is shining.

Reality is, the marketing of residential PV installation in the U.S. is mostly geared toward grid tied applications where users have net energy metering. That may change in the future, but for now, that makes your application and requirements something of the odd man out. Expect most peddlers to talk up what they sell (grid tied PV), and beat down what they don't (most everything else). Expect a lack of knowledge about either when discussing such things with salespeople. Caveat Emptor.

As other posters have suggested or alluded to, I'd suggest you stay with the ICE generator you have or one that that uses utility provide nat. gas or, if you are a dedicated prepper, diesel or propane, and at least put PV on the back burner until your power provider allows net metering of some sort.

Fossil fuel fired on site electricity generation is, at this time much less expensive and much more reliable than off grid residential PV supplied power.

Respectfully,

[Ampster]

......

All work with conventional batteries, but there is a minimum size to support your loads, the batteries have to be able to supply the 120Hz peak surge when generating the sinewave, too small of a battery and it fails.
.......

The OP is talking about a grid tied system and at least for the Outback offering of Radian and Skybox hybrid inverters they are able to handle the surge loads by using the grid. The Radian can handle more surge than the Skybox but in either case there is more flexibility in sizing the battery packs than in an off grid system.

[peakbagger]

Thanks guys,

As far as I know our power has never gone out for more than an hour or 2 in 5 years. I also have insurance on my car I hope to never crash type argument.

system goals:

offset some electrical costs

emergency backup for long term "situation" that hopefully never happens natural disaster or whatever.

Just another layer in our preparedness onion. Lol

IMHO your stated goals are the problem. You are mixing two very different goals that have vastly different system requirements and cost implications

"offset some electrical costs" is pretty simple, install a grid tie system built around your utilities incentives and solar policies Batteries are not needed. In some cases that means no system at all if the utility is solar unfriendly. Buy a generator, test and maintain it on occasion and line up a bulk fuel source for the extended outages. If you have natural gas piped to your house and assume its reliable in an emergency, natural gas is the way to go but if you dont the toss up is diesel or propane. Propane is a low maintenance fuel but in an emergency situation, bulk supplies disappear quickly and even gas grille bottles disappear. Diesel does not go bad and its bulk energy density is high so you can store a lot of days of power on site and usually diesel is the first fuel to get back into any area after a disaster.

"emergency backup for some long term situation" opens up a much bigger can of worms. If you are going for an end of the world as you know it scenario there is a big initial cost and in the long term repeated big expensive cost to replace batteries. The battery bank needs to be much larger unless you are willing to make lifestyle compromises

There are some interesting "home brew" projects that connect the house to a hybrid or full electric vehicle. In this case the batteries are routinely used for driving to justify the battery costs and on the rare occasion that you do need emergency power you can use them to support the gird isolated mode. Note the very important "home brew" description, no main stream automaker is selling this option. Lots of future hype and PR but not something you can currently buy. Should it become available in the future I dont see it something that can be retrofit easily. The lack of this functionality is probably a good sign that there isn't the demand to justify the costs.

Yes there is at least one company that sells a secure power supply option that offers a very limited power supply directly from solar panels with no batteries if the sun is out. With some creativity you might get two outlets by paying extra for two smaller inverters instead of one big one. If you want some emergency capability at minimal cost its the way to go. Even if you have it you will be in the dark for 1/2 to 2/3rd of the day if the sun is out.

IMHO if you let the end of the world as you know it scenario sway your thinking you will end up doing nothing or getting conned into writing a big check for functionality that you do not need or will use very often and I expect when the batteries eventually die you will let them and not replace them. KISS is good principle and hybrid systems have considerably more parts and adjustments.