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Questions, issues, need advice with my new Schindler XW+ 5548

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  • Questions, issues, need advice with my new Schindler XW+ 5548

    I installed myself last month a Schindler XW+ 5548, with a 10.5 KWH simpliphi battery bank. My system is Ac coupled to a Solar edge 3800 with 10 350w panels. I have a gateway on order and was told that the ship date got moved back until end of Q1 I did not buy the battery monitor as it seemed over priced (question #4). I am grid tied and have net metering with my utility for 10 more years.

    I mostly got this system for the 3-5 black outs per year that I get here and want the peace of mind of making the gas generator optional I did my load calculations and decided that I use about 10 kw/h per day grid tied (6-16 depending on season) and in grid down I could reduce my loads to about 4-6kwh per day as needed and do bigger draw items like electric cooking/ AC only if i have extra sun.

    I got everything installed and have a few weird things about the system that I want some advice about:

    1. when I follow the battery interrelation guides setting for the battery bank (lithion), 2stagenofloat, 48v low battery cut out, 55.4v bulk. the inverter adds a bulk volt termination voltage that can be set no higher than 54.0 v. but the inverter keeps charging right past 54.0v and right past bulk set point of 55.4v and goes until high battery cut out. I called tech support and they had no ideas for me. I tried using the custom battery settings and it worked the first time it charged but does the same thing as before and ignores the settings to switch over into absorption and never does.

    2. any way to self consume with an AC coupled solution while on grid? We had a power outage (37.5 hours) last week and the system worked and charged from solar when the sun was up how do I get it to do that while grid tied? It seems set up to do everything DC coupled but not ac coupled. Any good work arounds?

    3. can you charge/ generator support from a 120v single phase generator? I have a small old Colman power mate 2800w generator and during my outage last week it worked in generator support mode just fine. If my battery were low and my generator broke/ ran out of gas, can I run an heavy gauge 120v cord from my neighbors generator to charge/ run my loads or would it have to be 240v split phase?

    4. Is the Schneider battery monitor ($415) worth it or would the ($205) victron be just as good to tell me state of charge on my battery bank? My supplier said that the battery monitor was optional but I found after the fact that the battery MFG said that voltage was a poor way to measure SOC. It also seems that the XW+ does not read DC voltage directly but infers it from the AC meters. would/ could this be causing my issue #1? Last weeks outage showed me the flaw in trusting voltage for SOC. I thought I had 75% but was at 40% and ran out overnight I am considering adding a battery monitor and would like advice.


    thanks
    Ben

  • #2
    3. can you charge/ generator support from a 120v single phase generator? I have a small old Colman power mate 2800w generator and during my outage last week it worked in generator support mode just fine. If my battery were low and my generator broke/ ran out of gas, can I run an heavy gauge 120v cord from my neighbors generator to charge/ run my loads or would it have to be 240v split phase?
    The generator voltage has to match the inverter voltage configuration.

    However - with a proper transformer, you can upconvert a 120V genset to 240V and there you go. I've done this with a honeywell 2kw inverter genset and a honda eu2000. You must use a quality transformer, not the cheapest thing.


    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by weather spotter View Post

      1. when I follow the battery interrelation guides setting for the battery bank (lithion), 2stagenofloat, 48v low battery cut out, 55.4v bulk. the inverter adds a bulk volt termination voltage that can be set no higher than 54.0 v. but the inverter keeps charging right past 54.0v and right past bulk set point of 55.4v and goes until high battery cut out. I called tech support and they had no ideas for me. I tried using the custom battery settings and it worked the first time it charged but does the same thing as before and ignores the settings to switch over into absorption and never does.
      I believe the Simpliphi Battery Management System takes care of protecting your battery as long as the high battery cut out that you describe is the value that SimpliPhi recommends. Schindler tech support may not understand the settings for a SimpliPhi battery and you may want to ask SimpliPhi for clarification.
      2. any way to self consume with an AC coupled solution while on grid? We had a power outage (37.5 hours) last week and the system worked and charged from solar when the sun was up how do I get it to do that while grid tied? It seems set up to do everything DC coupled but not ac coupled. Any good work arounds?
      .
      AC coupling has several definitions and I would need a better understanding of your system to answer your question. The AC coupling may only refer to the ability of the Schindler to modulate the output of the SolarEdge when the grid is down.. Do you have a critical loads panel and is it connected to the Schindler? Does the Schindler give you control over dropping the grid and powering the Critical loads panel from the Schindler? If not. the crudest and definitely not the best work around would be to place a large Amperage transfer switch tied to a timer to drop the grid and force self consumption. A friend had a Tesla Powerwall before TOU programming became available so every day at two o'clock he flipped the main breaker and every night at 9 PM he turned it back on. That was his work around. It was probably not good on the breaker but that was his solution until Tesla uploaded the fix.
      Last edited by Ampster; 02-12-2019, 07:07 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

        The generator voltage has to match the inverter voltage configuration.

        However - with a proper transformer, you can upconvert a 120V genset to 240V and there you go. I've done this with a honeywell 2kw inverter genset and a honda eu2000. You must use a quality transformer, not the cheapest thing.

        Thanks Mike, that's what I figured needed to be the case with the generator input voltage, I read though your posts about step up transformers vs auto transformers but could not find a difinitive answer.


        The simplephi battery's do have built in bms but they don't communicate anything back to the Schindler inverter, Simpliphi says to set the charging voltages for bulk and asorb. I have them set but the xw+ does not switch out of bulk into float after an automatic charge start or a manual start.

        my system is set up where my solar edge inverter feeds my critical loads pannel and the Schindler xw+ is between the utility meter and the house acting as the whole house transfer switch. When the grid is up the ac power is in pass through mode of the xw+ so any extra solar flows past it back to the grid.

        Idealy what I want the xw to be able to do is priority solar consumption mode that the smaller SW has. It's like setting load shave but in reverse, I want an export shave. It works to charge the battery's when the grid is down so why not use it while the grid is up?? Your idea of a timer or tripping the breaker might work, I was just hoping for an automatic method.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by weather spotter View Post
          The simplephi battery's do have built in bms but they don't communicate anything back to the Schindler inverter, Simpliphi says to set the charging voltages for bulk and asorb. I have them set but the xw+ does not switch out of bulk into float after an automatic charge start or a manual start.
          Have you checked the current going to your battery? My understanding is that Bulk is like the CC stage and Absorb is like the CV stage. All you really care about with Lithium is the maximum voltage. If SimpliPhi has set the high voltage cutout conservatively your battery may never reach the point where current tapers.
          my system is set up where my solar edge inverter feeds my critical loads pannel and the Schindler xw+ is between the utility meter and the house acting as the whole house transfer switch. When the grid is up the ac power is in pass through mode of the xw+ so any extra solar flows past it back to the grid.

          Idealy what I want the xw to be able to do is priority solar consumption mode that the smaller SW has. It's like setting load shave but in reverse, I want an export shave. It works to charge the battery's when the grid is down so why not use it while the grid is up?? Your idea of a timer or tripping the breaker might work, I was just hoping for an automatic method.
          That is how it would need to be wired to modulate the output of the Solar Edge when the batteries are full.

          If I understand your goal of priority consumption correctly, physics takes care of priority consumption since any excess solar goes to the path of least resistance (your loads) before being exported to the grid. If what you are describing is what I call peak shaving then you want all your solar to go to the grid and your loads to be served by your batteries. Is it the former or the latter that describes your goal?

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for all the advice

            Here is the link to the SW feature that I am trying to copy.
            https://solar.schneider-electric.com...ge-technology/

            Right now When the solar is producing power it covers my loads and exports the rest. I like this but would like to also be able to take extra and charge the battery before it's exported to the grid. Basically I want to priority charge the battery's from solar while still hooked to the grid to export extra once the battery is full or if I have a cloudy day to use the grid. I'm trying to maximize self solar consumption.

            The xw can do everthing I want (load shave, sell, grid support) when the solar is DC coupled with the battery's . I'm trying to do the same thing when AC coupled. It works when the grid is down, or shut off but not when the grid is up. Maybe I have just found a limitation of the high end equipment, but it is some what maddening that that smaller unit has the feature and the big one does not.


            Im not fully sure what a cc charge stage is, but I thought bulk stage went from empty to xx.x colts and then asorb is on a timer (6min) then it's done charging (full).

            The display it on the charger shows that it will put in 50A (or whatever I set it to charge) and keep putting that amps right past the bulk v cut out.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by weather spotter View Post
              Thanks for all the advice

              Here is the link to the SW feature that I am trying to copy.
              https://solar.schneider-electric.com...ge-technology/

              Right now When the solar is producing power it covers my loads and exports the rest. I like this but would like to also be able to take extra and charge the battery before it's exported to the grid. Basically I want to priority charge the battery's from solar while still hooked to the grid to export extra once the battery is full or if I have a cloudy day to use the grid. I'm trying to maximize self solar consumption.

              The xw can do everthing I want (load shave, sell, grid support) when the solar is DC coupled with the battery's . I'm trying to do the same thing when AC coupled. It works when the grid is down, or shut off but not when the grid is up. Maybe I have just found a limitation of the high end equipment, but it is some what maddening that that smaller unit has the feature and the big one does not.
              I think I better understand what your goals are. That feature would also be useful for anyone in California who is trying to qualify for the Self Generation Incentive Program (SGIP). There have been many Tesla Powerwalls and a few LG Chem batteries installed in California which have received part of the hundreds of millions of dollars in rebates for participation in the SGIP. There may be a user base of SW users that may be able to help. That feature of charging from solar is also important nationally in order to take the 30% tax credit for solar related equipment.
              I am located in California and am in the process of commissioning an Outback Skybox to do the same thing. So far this forum has not demonstrated much knowledge about those features. I am away from my installation for a couple of weeks and will be unable to share further knowledge of how my system accomplishes that until I return.

              Im not fully sure what a cc charge stage is, but I thought bulk stage went from empty to xx.x colts and then asorb is on a timer (6min) then it's done charging (full).

              The display it on the charger shows that it will put in 50A (or whatever I set it to charge) and keep putting that amps right past the bulk v cut out.
              The Absorb phase as it relates to Lithium is the Constant Voltage phase when the battery is almost full and the current begins to taper off. As long as the charging stops at the high voltage cutoff specified by SimpliPhi you should be protected from over charging.

              Comment


              • #8
                I've not set up any grid configurations, so I can't advise you on it.
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • #9
                  I'm not sure my xw+ is charging properly, it keeps going past the bulk termination voltage and bulk voltage setpoints I might try a factory wipe and see if reprograming it might help. Also I don't have a battery monitor on my system, is this hurting the xw's ability to read dc voltage?

                  I would like to buy the Schindler battery monitor but $400 seems like a lot when the Victron runs $200. But if it fixing the charging issue it would be worth it. Ideas? Advice about charging and battery monitors? Should I stay within the xanbuss family? Or mix and match my Equipmwnt to save a few bucks?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I'd skip the battery monitor. In 2 weeks of actively monitoring your system, at all times, under all conditions, you will learn how to read your voltmeter and make a good enough guess as to where your batteries are. ( hint - generally they are never full enough )

                    The battery Totalizators, that count power Out vs In can get pretty close to an absolute SoC, but I don't bother with them either.
                    Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by weather spotter View Post
                      Thanks for all the advice

                      Here is the link to the SW feature that I am trying to copy.
                      https://solar.schneider-electric.com...ge-technology/

                      Right now When the solar is producing power it covers my loads and exports the rest. I like this but would like to also be able to take extra and charge the battery before it's exported to the grid. Basically I want to priority charge the battery's from solar while still hooked to the grid to export extra once the battery is full or if I have a cloudy day to use the grid. I'm trying to maximize self solar consumption.

                      The xw can do everthing I want (load shave, sell, grid support) when the solar is DC coupled with the battery's . I'm trying to do the same thing when AC coupled. It works when the grid is down, or shut off but not when the grid is up. Maybe I have just found a limitation of the high end equipment, but it is some what maddening that that smaller unit has the feature and the big one does not.


                      Im not fully sure what a cc charge stage is, but I thought bulk stage went from empty to xx.x colts and then asorb is on a timer (6min) then it's done charging (full).

                      The display it on the charger shows that it will put in 50A (or whatever I set it to charge) and keep putting that amps right past the bulk v cut out.
                      Why do you want to cycle the battery bank when you have net metering? The battery last a lot longer when they are on stand by than cycling. you can set the grid support voltage near the high voltage cut off, so the battery will be full before you sell to the grid, but you can't charge the battery unless you are using them. the lithium battery are good at PSOC unlike lead-acid batteries.

                      Right now I am using the load shave to use some of the battery power so tomorrow I can use the solar to give the batteries a heavy charge to stir up the lead-acid batteries.

                      your battery voltage has to be lower than the grid support set voltage. you can set the load shave amp to 0.5 amps so it won't draw much from the grid. when the battery bank use up the energy you can charge it with solar tomorrow instead from the grid. but you have to disable the XW charger or make sure the battery voltage to recharge by the XW set low enough that it won't trigger the XW Charger while using the battery power in the night.

                      Best wishes

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for the ideas, I have played around with load shaving and want to be able to use it to self consume. I also want to be able to get time of use rate with net metering and I want the option to make sure the battery is full from solar each day so I can load shave each night. Keep in mind the only way to charge the battery's when AC coupled is to have the xw charge them. Right now I can turn off the grid and charge them up then manually turn on the grid and let it sell back once the battery's are full. I just wish there was a charge before export setting that would allow the xw to charge from extra AC solar before it passes though to the grid.

                        Or or what I might have to do is add a few pannels and dc couple them.... im finding there is never too much solar 🌞☀☀

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          It is the battery voltage control what you want. You don't need to charge your battery bank to 100% because you have lithium batteries. unlike lead-acid batteries, lithium battery work well PSOC. you set the grid support voltage near the high battery cut off point. the inverter won't sell to the grid unless the battery voltage reach the set point. When the battery reach the voltage inverter start sell and when the solar goes lower the battery also get lower, the inverter stop sell, battery get charged.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by paulcheung View Post
                            It is the battery voltage control what you want. You don't need to charge your battery bank to 100% because you have lithium batteries. unlike lead-acid batteries, lithium battery work well PSOC. you set the grid support voltage near the high battery cut off point. the inverter won't sell to the grid unless the battery voltage reach the set point. When the battery reach the voltage inverter start sell and when the solar goes lower the battery also get lower, the inverter stop sell, battery get charged.
                            Yes you are right for a normally DC coupled system (solar-charge controller- battery - xw- load). My system is solar - solar edge grid tied inverter- loads- xw - battery or grid. My only way to charge the battery's is with the xw I don't have a charge controller.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              How do you get your battery charged when the grid is out? after you spend so much money to get the XW+. why don't you just get a charge controller and setup the system properly?

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