PowerJack grid tied inverters, worth a damn?

[electricsuperduty]

I have no idea what 'blastering' might mean and I can only guess you have zero electric background.

Island protection is one part - back feeding a circuit is another.

The US holds it's own in selling junk that is useless - there is legal protection for the buyer though which helps. Much of the junk sold on online auctions (fleabay etc) should never be sold - probably similar for flea markets.

You don't understand the word code - that is the first problem. Sunking can better explain that if he will.

None of the junk you are referring to is UL listed - how to use it connected to your home electric system?

OMG, Blastering...take a guess.

Code....a big scary word used by the up-ity ( if you know what I mean by Up-ity) probably not. I have codes in my area of expertise, so I know they are giudelines for methods and safety...how's that for not understanding. Still need Sunkings help to explain that to me?


Up-ity. A word of description used to define a people group who think they know more than you do, so they tend to look down upon others.

Forget it.....sorry I came into YOUR CHAT ROOM.

[inetdog]

State your case instead of blastering.


1. What are the objections if there is island Protection.
2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.
3. Sales, that's a tough one, China is full of liars. Thats why US made is important.

Statement of case:

1a. There are multiple strategies for island protection, some of which work well and some of which will fail in case of very precise non-resistive load situations. It is not clear (since not objectively tested) whether the island protection in these units meets the requirements of the National Electrical Code and power utility.
1b. Since these units are not UL tested, there is high likelihood that some units will fail and emit smoke and/or fire, causing problems within your island. Component failures of this sort can also compromise the islanding protection.
2. If they were made up to code, they would not be plug-in connected, since the code only allows inspected hard-wired connections.
The anti-islanding, short-circuit protection, and other necessary features could easily be compromised by plugging the unit into an incorrectly wired outlet.
3. No comment....

[Sunking]

2. Who said it would be against code if they were made to be up to code.

This is the only question that needs to be answered. Any premisses power source has to be hard wired and inaccessible to the general public. Otherwise imagine all the receptacles in you home if they were male instead of female. Let your kids lick that. Come to thank of that might be a good idea. There would be a lot less stupid people around.

As a former voting member of the NEC code making panel rest assured a Plug-N-Play grid tied inverter will ever be approved. Let me take that one step further: Will never be proposed or discussed. So forget about it, is not ever going to happen. That is why there will never be a UL plug in inverter in the USA. The UL would not even accept the application for testing. So end of discussion.

[russ]

Some sure do get broken hearted when some wild off the wall scheme isn't acceptable to the system.

The system is there for a reason and normally a good reason. UL/electric code/ fire protection codes etc fall into this class.

Forget the 'uppity', 'progressive', 'anti-progressive' and other labels - they simply show intolerance to any view point except the PC one according to the one applying label.

[electricsuperduty]

I'll make some vids to show how it's done
My hearts not broken my system work very well
It's just irks me when "the professionals" get the attitude nothing can go any further. I know, I Was bad about that once too

[electricsuperduty]

This is the only question that needs to be answered. Any premisses power source has to be hard wired and inaccessible to the general public. Otherwise imagine all the receptacles in you home if they were male instead of female. Let your kids lick that. Come to thank of that might be a good idea. There would be a lot less stupid people around.

As a former voting member of the NEC code making panel rest assured a Plug-N-Play grid tied inverter will ever be approved. Let me take that one step further: Will never be proposed or discussed. So forget about it, is not ever going to happen. That is why there will never be a UL plug in inverter in the USA. The UL would not even accept the application for testing. So end of discussion.

I'll put this in my never say never file

[russ]

Doing it is easy - no big deal as a high school kid could manage - probably even some girl scouts.

It is illegal and unsafe in several aspects and if one gets caught with this kind of claptrap installed - by the utility for example - you are in a real mess.

Quit tilting windmills.

[theshadownose]

If you want to do this, give something like this a try:

Sanyo mini-split AC set to a small temp differential (about a 300 watt draw)
Prosine 1000 watt (ok) or 1800 watt (better) inverter (24V)
860 watts PV (4 215-watt Kyocera KD215GX-LPU's)
Blue Sky Energy SB3048 charge controller
200AH / 24V battery bank (4 T105's are a fairly cheap way to go here)
The usual BOS stuff (breakers, cabling etc)

If you monitor such a system carefully and use it only when you have the solar to use it (i.e. don't rely on the battery to do much once the sun goes down) you could have a pretty good demo application for under $5K.

K, instead of back and forth when the law is clear- lets get back to main- Billvon- Sanyo set to low pulls around 300 watts for 3000 BTU of cooling. I agree with you; based on reviews- this is most energy efficient A/C I have ever heard of. It is, unfortunately, an A/C AC pardon the pun.... are there any DC mini-splits? If so, that would eliminate the inverter.

I will ask a stupid question, just to get a good answer- with 1000 watts of panels, could I run this during peak hours without batteries?

[Sunking]

I will ask a stupid question, just to get a good answer- with 1000 watts of panels, could I run this during peak hours without batteries?

Absolutely NOT. You will have to have batteries.

[theshadownose]

Absolutely NOT. You will have to have batteries.

Awesome- that is the answer I expected- Now- why?

I have run several fans directly via DC- is it a regulation issue, power spikes? What is the risk of just running off the panels? Not being sarcastic, just clueless.

[electricsuperduty]

Pulling power from the panels will have wild, unregulated voltages, the battery's have a steady voltage.
There's more than this issue

[Sunking]

Awesome- that is the answer I expected- Now- why?

Because Solar Panels are current sources, not constant voltage sources. The current from a panel varies second by second and you need a batteryto regulate the voltage and make up for shortfalls.

[inetdog]

Because Solar Panels are current sources, not constant voltage sources. The current from a panel varies second by second and you need a batteryto regulate the voltage and make up for shortfalls.

And also because loads may not draw a constant current and therefore need the battery to supply peak current to load when it exceeds the panel's max current and store current from panels during dips in load.
Some loads, like resistive heating or lighting or some types of motors will try to draw relatively constant current from the source, others like DC-to-DC converters (or Sanyo inverter-based A/C) can have a stepped waveform at some frequency.

As long as the desired instantaneous load current never exceeds the panel output AND the load does not care about voltage spikes from 0 to Voc AND the load will continue to operate at some level or shut down gracefully when the panel output power is less than it would like to have, then you might have a workable system.

[theshadownose]

And also because loads may not draw a constant current and therefore need the battery to supply peak current to load when it exceeds the panel's max current and store current from panels during dips in load.
Some loads, like resistive heating or lighting or some types of motors will try to draw relatively constant current from the source, others like DC-to-DC converters (or Sanyo inverter-based A/C) can have a stepped waveform at some frequency.

As long as the desired instantaneous load current never exceeds the panel output AND the load does not care about voltage spikes from 0 to Voc AND the load will continue to operate at some level or shut down gracefully when the panel output power is less than it would like to have, then you might have a workable system.

Awesome, TY- that's about what I thought, but I did not have facts, just guesses. I seem to remember reading about a setup where a guy was using a mostly dead 12 volt as a redneck regulator.
back to main topic.
So 1000 watts of panels ~1000.00
MPPT controller 500.00
200~ AH batteries- 4 lets be cheapskates- Sams Club Energizers @ 82.00 each = 328.00
Sanyo mini split 821.00 @ A.J madison.

So we are at 2649.00
Plus wiring
plus fusing- so wound up to 3000.00.

Just for comparison. a "Haier HWF05XCJ 5k BTU, Window AC 9.7EER, Mechanical, 115V" In stock at Target price today is 114.00.

Energy use of this model is approximately 500 watts per hour.

So 3000.00 minus 114.00= 2886 (the cost of the solar vs the cost of the window unit. )

at 500 watts, and an electricity cost of hmm, lets say 20 cents per kilowatt, that means 2 hours for 1 Kw.. and 5Kw to get to 1.00 so 2886 * 10, or 28,860

SO, I will start to break even after running my window unit for 28,860 HOURS. For perspective, there are 8760 hours in a year, so that is running constantly for 3.29 YEARS.

Since you probably only run it for at Most, 1/2 the year, for at most 1/2 the day, probably 1/4 the day that will take over 10 years before you come close to breaking even. at that point, you need another 328.00 in batteries, which will push off break even for another year.

So, as a "practical demonstration" , this is not all that practical.

[Sunking]

Awesome, TY- that's about what I thought, but I did not have facts, just guesses. I seem to remember reading about a setup where a guy was using a mostly dead 12 volt as a redneck regulator.
back to main topic.
So 1000 watts of panels ~1000.00
MPPT controller 500.00
200~ AH batteries- 4 lets be cheapskates- Sams Club Energizers @ 82.00 each = 328.00
Sanyo mini split 821.00 @ A.J madison.

So we are at 2649.00
Plus wiring
plus fusing- so wound up to 3000.00.

Just for comparison. a "Haier HWF05XCJ 5k BTU, Window AC 9.7EER, Mechanical, 115V" In stock at Target price today is 114.00.

Energy use of this model is approximately 500 watts per hour.

So 3000.00 minus 114.00= 2886 (the cost of the solar vs the cost of the window unit. )

at 500 watts, and an electricity cost of hmm, lets say 20 cents per kilowatt, that means 2 hours for 1 Kw.. and 5Kw to get to 1.00 so 2886 * 10, or 28,860

SO, I will start to break even after running my window unit for 28,860 HOURS. For perspective, there are 8760 hours in a year, so that is running constantly for 3.29 YEARS.

Since you probably only run it for at Most, 1/2 the year, for at most 1/2 the day, probably 1/4 the day that will take over 10 years before you come close to breaking even. at that point, you need another 328.00 in batteries, which will push off break even for another year.

So, as a "practical demonstration" , this is not all that practical.

Well if you buy the cheap batteries you forget to calculate replacement cost every year. There is no way you can get ahead with solar battery systems. Fact is you will pay 10 to 20 times more for electricity the rest of your life. That is the dirty little secret supporters, activist, and dealers do not want you to know about.