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  • #16
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
    Ray you live in CA where electrical and building codes are the strictest in the country. No AHJ is going to issue you a permit with DIY panels or materials. You might be able to pull a permit to do the install yourself, depends on how tight of a grip the trade unions have around your local government throat, but none will issue a permit with DIY panels. California local NFPA is already looking very close at solar and getting ready to slam the industry with strict new local codes. There have been a rash of fires in southern CA with Solar systems and FD are throwing a fit and have a loud voice in the NFPA, they run it along with insurance carriers.
    I can pull permits for DIY install of approved UL equipment (have talked with a few others in my area that have done so). As for DIY panels the cost is now much higher than factory built. I did play with a kit a while back just t learn but it wasn't a full fledged panel just a few cells together. An educational moment. My point in posting the video was just that there apparently was a DIY panel setup that received approval (based on the video - again would need to see the permits for 100% confirmation) for grid tie. This was a while back so i am sure the rules have changed.

    Bottom line is to check with the local planning and permit department. From e-mail exchanges I have had they are very helpful in guiding you before you start plunking down $$$$
    --Ray
    8xSV-X-195-LV - 22.80 Voc - 18.30 Vmp - 10.66 Imp - 11.55 Isc
    2xUL Solar 85w - 21.9 Voc - 17.9 Vmp - 4.84 Imp - 5.17 Isc
    1xUL Solar 120w - 21.9 Voc - 18.1 Vmp - 6.6 Imp - 6.8 Isc
    7xHF 15w - 23.57 Voc - 17.5 Vmp - 0.86 Imp - 1.15 Isc
    MorningStar MPPT 60 Charge Controller
    Midnite Classic 150 Charge Controller
    700ah used Gel batteries
    Xantrex PROWatts 600 PSW Inverter
    HF 1000/2000 MSW Watt Inverter

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    • #17
      [QUOTE=russ;40109]Sunking can answer that best I believe - NEC is nationwide but local agencies have a say as well.

      The 300 years is misleading for sure - but not inaccurate as Enphase uses it.
      /QUOTE]


      concur russ... 300 years is a little out there. anything too rosie i question the authenticity.. unless enphase created a time machine and was able to travel 300 years into the future i'm one to be very skeptical.

      as for grid-tie with homemade panels, i'm not sure if that really make much sense... safety, safety, safety imo and i'll leave it at that

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      • #18
        What all of you are talking about is MTBF or Mean time before failure.
        This is an engineering calculation based on theoretical lifespans.
        Actually they will last much less than that. I would predict a bit longer than the warranty period.
        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

        [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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        • #19
          [QUOTE=s.xavier;40214]
          Originally posted by russ View Post
          as for grid-tie with homemade panels, i'm not sure if that really make much sense... safety, safety, safety imo and i'll leave it at that
          Ignore the safety issue, and pay attention to final cost and life span. It is less expensive to buy factory panels with certifications and warranty. That makes it plain silly to build a DIY panel.
          MSEE, PE

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          • #20
            You mix with 2 questions, Hobbyist solar panel setup and reasonable professional/commercial Solar panel setup.

            It is not a good idea to build your own solar panel for long run plus many safety factor.

            For Hobbyist Solar panel setup.
            1). For a 600W inverter that allows 22-60 VDC.
            -- I think that you mean Grid Tie inverter (GTI), and those Specs are Chinese make GTI, Due to low quality, they are not very safe.
            -- Those Hobbyist 600W GTI, you really use it up 450W for safety to burn out or decrease efficiency.
            -- Most GTI, once your PVs trigger its GTI starting voltage, it will tracking wider range voltage for Maxium power, it will be very close 30Vx10A = 300W, or 50Vx 6A = 300W.

            2). How can I keep track of my solar input to the grid, to make sure I'm being discounted for the energy provided?
            -- For Hobbyist, you can buy a power meter from ebay, Cost only $16 to measure and keep track of power to grid.

            3). how does the DC to AC conversion workout?
            -- Most GTI, they have specs of efficiency, higher is better.

            Difference between DIY solar panels and reasonable professional/commercial Solar panel setup are cost and safety.
            In my Area.

            DIY installed 2.8KW solar panel system cost less than $8,000 ( pass city building/electical code and power company permits)
            - You need to have electrical knowledge background, CAD drawing, understanding all equipments are UL/CSA stuff, grounding.
            - you need to talk to your local city hall to find out. in my area, it is easy, just need a CAD drawing and time and money to pay for permit.
            - you need to talk to your power company as well, I haven't done it yet because I don't have everthing planned, They want everything CSA approved ( Canada), I am stuck with UL but should be fine, I heard that they are not very tight.

            Professional installed 2.8KW solar panel system cost Approm. $ 15,000 to $17,000.

            If you want a small project of less than $500, you can really go for Hobbyist setup only, DIY solar panel and low cost GTI and not many options you have.

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            • #21
              Here in VA, and perhaps most places in the US, CAD drawings are not required for any sort of permit. Think of who legitimately pulls permits. How many of them would have CAD skills or own CAD software? The counties are not going to lock out the small businesses from the building and home improvement industry.

              I've gone through the process of building a 1500 sf garage with upstairs apartment/office. It's truly a magnificent structure! The design was my own, and I drafted it out with PaintShop Pro ver. 9. That sounds pretty kludgy, but I'm actually very fast with graphic editing software. The county happily accepted my plans, chuckling quietly to themselves. I asked them what was so funny, and they said most plans come in crudely drawn with pencil and paper, seldom correctly scaled, and they once even had a plan come in sketched on a napkin.

              This time around with a home addition project, we're working with an architect (due to ore challenging structural issues). He's very old-school. Everything is drafted out by hand, in pencil, on a drafting table -- the way my dad did it. No CAD. That's (way) more than adequate for the county.
              Sarah

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              • #22
                CAD is only about 10,000 percent better than by hand and even by using excel or other program of that nature. CAD allows easy, accurate design and easy checking. Places may not require it and if places want to stay 'backwaters' not much to do.

                Spent a lifetime in engineering and the CAD programs were a real boon to the profession - work quality generally went way up.

                Any kid that graduates with an civil or mechanical engineering degree and can't use CAD is lost before his first job - if they can get one that is. Before I retired I ran a good sized design office for iron ore reduction plants - CAD capability was mandatory. We would help the kid improve basic CAD skills but would not dream of starting from scratch.
                [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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                • #23
                  I could not imagine doing any kind of architectural work by hand any more.
                  The ability to make changes and in minutes or less be able to create new sections, elevations, and renderings is worth too much.
                  NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                  [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                  [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                  [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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                  • #24
                    Sorry for off topic and mis-info about CAD, I am sure clear hand drawing is fine too, They just want a clear record in city hall record and collect some money from you.

                    not an Engineer, I am low end laborer in Canada, English is my 2nd language, When I immigrated to Canada 25 years ago, I studied at College for Electronic and Computer programmer training, They did not allow handwritten, Everything needed to be typing and drawing was done by computer CAD, Even today, I can do very fast typing as well as CAD.

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                    • #25
                      No problem, computerpc101!

                      Russ and Rich, I'm not saying CAD isn't better. I'm a graphic artist -- different graphics application, but still on the computer. I can't imagine not using the computer for my graphics. I can't imagine how our architect remains old-school, although I can't deny his work is top notch. I'd rather have him in my corner, with his drafting table and squares and decades of experience, than any other local architect with a computer. That said...

                      Why erect barriers to everyday people that don't really exist? Isn't the purpose of this forum to enable solar enthusiasts?
                      Sarah

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                      • #26
                        As far as CAD goes I think any small business can afford to invest a couple of hundred in a cad system, doesn't have to be high end, it is useful for time management and will pay for itself in a very short time.
                        Now as far as solar is concerned. I and others are not erecting barriers to DIY solar. Our aim is to educate as to the pitfalls and hopefully save as many as possible from making dire mistakes. This stuff is dangerous and can kill or injure. It is not something to be toyed with.
                        And aside from that as far as solar PV is concerned it is in the long run less costly to purchase UL listed components such as panels. The initial cost is not that much more about maybe 15%. The lifespan is on the conservative side is 5x longer.
                        There are no issues with permitting, connecting to the grid or insurance in the event of a fire or other malfunction.

                        Now thermal such as air collectors, hot water etc are fine DIY projects. The likelihood of someone being killed is minimal. The materials are generally more readily available and the skills needed are not as high as PV. The chances of these type of projects lasting more than 5 years is also greater.
                        NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                        [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                        [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                        [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Naptown View Post
                          As far as CAD goes I think any small business can afford to invest a couple of hundred in a cad system, doesn't have to be high end,
                          I take it you have never bought AutoCad? A scaled down Version Of AutoCad LT cost $1200, plus $200/year license per machine. Full Version is $4000 plus license fees
                          MSEE, PE

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                            I take it you have never bought AutoCad? A scaled down Version Of AutoCad LT cost $1200, plus $200/year license per machine. Full Version is $4000 plus license fees
                            No All of what I did was architectural. Autocad had too much stuff I didn't need so I never bought it. I never had the opportunity to design Jet engines etc. I own and use Softplan. It is object oriented and easy to use. Still not cheap at $2500 for the new full version(without options) with one key. For most folks and small businesses in the architectural end of things 3D home design is a good starting point. It only costs about a hundred dollars, Is a scaled down ( generally 3-4 versions earlier) of chief Architect. Doesn't do everything Chief does but the commands and general use is the same. A good way to learn Chief without breaking the bank
                            NABCEP certified Technical Sales Professional

                            [URL="http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5334-Solar-Off-Grid-Battery-Design"]http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showth...Battery-Design[/URL]

                            [URL]http://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html[/URL] (Voltage drop Calculator among others)

                            [URL="http://www.gaisma.com"]www.gaisma.com[/URL]

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                            • #29
                              While AutoCad is the top of the line there are many cheap and even free alternatives that are fine for the less demanding.
                              [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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