Got my Little Starter Off-Grid 2.5+Kw System about where I want it

[Matrix]

No unfortunately the MS Classic 150 cannot communicate with the SW thru the Xanbus, Only Schneider / Conext Products can "talk" to each other. But the reason I went with MS C150 is due to...
1. MidNite's stellar products. I really like the combo of the 150 and the Whiz Bang JR. Using the NOT MS local app called "Classic" in the Google Play store, it will let you see just about everything going on in the system, including the watts and amps being used at that moment. And the MS local app lets you change settings on the 150 (but note: the 2 apps cannot be used together, you MUST close one to use the other or they will not work on your LAN)
2. the Classic 150's ability to be connected and controlled via the Local MS App ...WITHOUT the need for a ComBox like extra that the SW requires. The Combox is very costly, but if you are already getting a combox, I guess the Conext would be OK.
3. MidNite has the sizing tool calc that allowed me to plan the largest array possible and size it to the right size CC for the money. (Web search "MidNite Solar sizing tool" and you will find it. Very helpful)

All that said ... I probably will get a a Combox tomorrow if I can find a Cyber Monday deal

I currently have the SW 4024, a BTS for the SW, the SCP and the Battery Monitor with another Temp Sensor. The combox will allows me control of the SW from inside the house or the web. Also ... you need the Combox for doing any Firmware updates to the SW, Which kinda bends me out of shape about Conext products. Kinda hard to believe after you've spent about 1500 for the SW you cannot do updates unless you spend another 450 for the combox. Robbery. So not really impressed with Conext.

If you try to PM me I will answer, but as of yet I have not found where this forum allows for PMs.

[Matrix]

If you are typing right now ... i just edited my response above. Hit refresh

[Matrix]

But I do not think Schneider / Conext is totally honest about the SW's features. A key feature is "AC support mode" which according to their manual says allows support from an incoming AC line ONLY if conditions are met. Conditions like the battery falls below a user set voltage, or if you have the Battery Monitor a user set State of Charge. Would be nice if it was not BS !!!!!!!!!!!!! It dos not work like that at all. If AC support mode is on, it hardly shares the load with battery. My inverter draws 70-95% of its needs from the AC ALL THE TIME. Regardless of SOC or voltage settings. I have spent hours on the phone with tech support. They say it is working as expected and that part of the manual needs to be changed.

So I just leave AC support mode off. But it would have been nice to have. Would have allowed for seamless hand offs between battery and AC when / if voltage or SOC got to low. So if yours works differently please let me know.

[Matrix]

NEOW after a month of back and forth with Schneider tec support, I think I might go with an XW if it will do what you want. They basically told me they have been testing the SW all month with my AC support mode issue, and sent me a free battery monitor to test more as well. Long story short, the SW will not preform as advertised in AC support mode. It does work.... But only if the loads on L1 and L2 are balanced. Who in he hell can assure that condition all the time. After testing they told me this was the best I could expect. But no where close to what was advertised.

Tec support also said the XW just works better in the AC support mode. Better transformers.

[Mike90250]

The XW is able to operate fine, in a fairly unbalanced mode, I've been quite happy with mine, and I've driven some pretty imbalanced loads with it,

[Matrix]

The XW is able to operate fine, in a fairly unbalanced mode, I've been quite happy with mine, and I've driven some pretty imbalanced loads with it,

Yes the SW works fine with unbalanced loads too ... just not with it's fabled AC Support Mode .. which, when an AC line (Gen or Grid) is connected to the SW, is suppose to supply AC battery support ONLY when the batteries fall below a specific voltage or SOC ( if you have the additional battery monitor - an extra $425 US). This is the part that does not work unless the load is balanced. Very disappointing to me. I was hoping to be able to leave an AC line connect and live all the time, And it would "kick-in" when i needed it. As it turns out, If I leave a line connected and in AC support mode, I almost never use any battery ... unless there is a larger (over 1000w) load on each leg fairly balanced.

Other than this ... Well and the SW's problems with stacking (which does not really matter to me as I am not stacking multiple inverters) ... but other than this the SW is pretty solid as a 240v split 3400w continuous inverter for the money. Just wished it would do as advertised. But the engineers say ... it is doing what it was designed to do. So it sounds like Schneider's engineers and marketeers need to get together on what it is suppose to do before they boast of its features.

[NEOW]

NEOW after a month of back and forth with Schneider tec support, I think I might go with an XW if it will do what you want. They basically told me they have been testing the SW all month with my AC support mode issue, and sent me a free battery monitor to test more as well. Long story short, the SW will not preform as advertised in AC support mode. It does work.... But only if the loads on L1 and L2 are balanced. Who in he hell can assure that condition all the time. After testing they told me this was the best I could expect. But no where close to what was advertised.

Tec support also said the XW just works better in the AC support mode. Better transformers.

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Been busy with other projects.

Couple things:

One reason I'm considering the Schneider MPPT charge controller is I really like that it will talk to the inverter over the Xanbus. Ideal for load shaving when the sun is out during peak grid $$$ periods. Otherwise I would be much more likely to go with a Midnight classic like you did.

XW/SW a big one is the dual input for me, generator and grid not one or the other, this eliminates another transfer switch that would need to be installed in my configuration.

IIRC you have a 24v bank, are you planning one ditching your 24v bank and building a new bank?

My plans really only call for a small 225 AH 48v bank, which according to the XW is smaller then the ideal 410ah bank the manual suggests for load shaving.

Reason for the small bank is it's cheap, I don't have any need to long battery back up as I fully expect the generator to kick on as needed when the grid is down. Second, in 5 years or so, (after my bank is dead I expect LiFeO4 to be pretty much ready for price time.


Still happy with your panels?

[NEOW]

Did tech mention anything to the idea that AC support mode would work better with their MPPT controller?

[Matrix]

Did tech mention anything to the idea that AC support mode would work better with their MPPT controller?

They did not ...

But What I mean by AC Support Does NOT work is simply it does not draw mostly off the battery at all times. If I do off-grid no AC in on my system over night I use down to about 70% SOC. If I turn on the AC breaker and turn on AC support mode over night my SOC the next morning is about 90% or higher. I use almost no battery in AC Support mode and my loads for testing are almost the same. My average hourly load is about 200-400 watts. I have done this test 3-5 times. Same results.

Don't get me wrong, AC Support Does Work ... Sorta. If you have a larger load on the system ... it will work more or less. But NOT the way it is mentioned in the Owners Manual.

"AC Support ensures that no current comes from the AC Input connection of the Conext SW as long as the battery state-of-charge (SOC) or battery voltage conditions allow it." page 1-7

Even the top tier techs I spoke with at Schneider said "that line should not be in the manual." They did a bunch of testing on their end and gave me a bunch of testing work to do on my end, and a month later came back to me and said basically said,
- AC support mode needs fairly Balanced loads between L1 and L2 to work.
- That had been my experience as well
- When I run my normal load, it is about an average of 200-400 watts per hour, and usually on L1. The exception to that is my well pump which is on L2 and runs at 720 watts but it is an on / off load that only stays on a min or 2 unless doing laundry or shower.
- When I run my normal load on L1, AC support mode Does Not work very well at all. You can watch it on the ComBox HTML app ... most of the load supply is coming from the AC line in or Gen support NOT the Battery. It is about 5% battery and 95% Line
- But if I balance the loads between L1 and L2 with my well pump on (L2) and my hot water heater dump load on (which is connected to L1) I get about 1150 watts on each leg (with my normal load of 200-400 watts running too), And When all that kicks on, watching the Combox display on the computer, The AC line completely kicks out, and all the load draws off the battery ... What you would expect all the time from AC support according to the manual, but it does not happen (with the testing I have done) unless:
1. loads are balanced and higher than 1000 watts each leg (I have not yet tested balanced loads with lower watts), or
2. a total load closer to the Inverter's total rated output of 3400 watts

I guess one my my "issues" that may be causing AC support mode not to work as expected is that my average hourly load is only about 200-400 watts. This is way below the inverter's rated output. And it may be part of my problem. But the battery bank to run a continuous load of 2000 watts would be huge.

Also note: There is NO WAY to leave an AC in line connected and turn it off inside the inverter so that it is not running the loads. If you have an AC line connected, the inverter will either run in AC connected mode (which is no battery / solar at all) or if enabled it will run in AC support mode. So to run off batteries with my normal hourly loads, I have to turn the AC line off at the breaker. Tech did tell me that the XW will allow you to turn off the AC line in from settings inside the inverter via the SCP or the Combox, But the SW will not.

So ... A Xanbus MPPT CC Might make some diff, but I doubt it. There is 1 advanced setting in the SW that only works if you have their MPPT CC, I can't test it so I do not know. The manual reads:

"Enhanced AC Support (EnhancedACSup) works when power systems are DC coupled with a Xanbus-enabled MPPT Solar Charge Controller" page 1-8

So that might do something. But nothing has change things yet for me ...

You also WILL need a ComBox if you EVER want to do any firmware updates to the SW as there is NO WAY to do an update without the Combox. Cheapest Combox new that I found (and also the cheapest place for the SW and the SCP) was Webo Solar. I paid $198 for the Combox last week.

Hope any of this makes sense and helps in your decision. I am not knocking the SW ... it works as an inverter really well. And Tech Support has been very responsive, But the AC support mode is IMO flaky. And also, Tech told me there are real problems with inverter stacking and the SW. So if you plan to have 2 of them ... well I dont know. I'd call them first to ask what the status of stacking firmware updates are at this time.

[Matrix]

One reason I'm considering the Schneider MPPT charge controller is I really like that it will talk to the inverter over the Xanbus. Ideal for load shaving when the sun is out during peak grid $$$ periods. Otherwise I would be much more likely to go with a Midnight classic like you did.

I think you may run into the same problem with load shaving as I run into with AC Support mode. the setting for LS is in the same place as ACS and I have tried LS too ... seems to be limited to the same conditions as ACS mode.

Still happy with your panels?

Yes very. I think the features REC mentions in their advertising are not only marketing words, they seem to really do as their marketing department suggests. Refreshing, since for the last month dealing with Schneider has revealed that their claims for the SW have fallen way short of actual experience.

[Matrix]

Here is an example Coming off my Conext Combox System Monitor of AC Support Mode Not supporting the battery, but rather dominating it. This is not how it is supposed to be according to documentation. And if I want to run off my battery, this is why I can't leave me AC line in breaker on. My hope was that I could have an AC line in backing up the battery whenever the battery hit a user specified low voltage or SOC ... but apparently Schneider did not design it this way, even though they say they did.

I had a 1050 watt water heater element on L1, other than that, the loads are fairly balanced between L1 and L2. ( Never mind that it says the AC Line in is "Generator". I have no idea why it thinks that. The Line in is POCO power)
ACSM.JPG

[Matrix]

And here is what happens when I throw and additional 750 watts from my 120v well pump on the load on L2 ... essentially balancing the loads about 1400 on L1 and 1300 on L2.



ACSM1.JPG

[Matrix]

(for those just joining us after these Schneider Combox Pics, please begin reading at post #18)

[Sunking]

I must be missing something. Why would you pay 60-cent to $1 per Kwh using power from batteries, when you could buy it from the POCO for 15 cents. Do you like throwing and giving money away?

[NEOW]

Do you have any solar coming in? I'm not familiar with how the com box will monitor a non Schneider charge controller, which leads me to the question as to the possibility that using their Xanbus MPPT controller would alter the situation. The XW is about a grand more last I looked for the 5KW model. It also about twice the weight.

The way you are setup it's totally up to SOC correct as to what the SW will do in regards to load shedding, correct?

I think your display says generator because the SW is considered an off grid unit isn't it?

In my case I want to totally disconnect from the grid at peak times and run directly off solar and my small battery bank. So I may just use a whole house generator xfer switch, I have central AC that is normally turned off during peak hours so when they're not running I don't have any large loads.