Two "free" solar panels

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  • Sunking
    Solar Fanatic
    • Feb 2010
    • 23301

    #46
    Originally posted by Cajun Bill
    WOW! Sorry if I got your panties in a wad Sunking. Perhaps it might help if I try to re-explain what I'm trying to do: I have two free solar panels, 280W each. I also have four 6V GC batteries that are just sitting in my RV unused. I also have a Zantrex PSW 12V inverter in the camper that is also unused presently. The camper will soon be sold/traded/given away and there is no need to let these items go to waste. I originally purchased these items so that I could "dry camp" on a trip out West and on future camping trips, but things change, including my wife's health so that plan is no longer functional.
    Nah I did not get my shorts in a knot. Just want to make it clear there is no payback in batteries. Next order of biz: I will say a prayer tonight for your wife.

    Originally posted by Cajun Bill
    So, second bite at the apple: My original intent was to build a small system to see if it would be feasible to utilize these items to run my freezer and/or fridge that I have in my shop, but with the advice of many on this forum, I have about given up on that idea because it appears that I would need more panels and possibly more batts. Now, as far as "payback", which you so trivialized, at that point when I mentioned that, it appeared that I might have to buy an "expensive" MPPT controller rather than be able to utilize a cheapo PWM controller and that the inverter might have to be replaced with one that will operate at 48V. (I'm not convinced of that yet, but all of you on this forum certainly know more than me about solar so I'm assuming your advice is correct.) So as to "payback", I was talking about the cost of those additional items that I don't already have that I would consider having to shell out some $$$ for. Based on your calculations, even that concept seems to be wrong so I'll accept that and give up on any "payback".

    So now, what am I left with? the opportunity to build and gain some knowledge about solar and possibly utilize some items I already own to go "off grid" in a small way to see if I can get a self-sustaining system working. Self sustaining has intrigued me since I built my small aquaponics system where I caught some small perch, put then in a tank and used their waste to nurture some plants, but because I couldn't get the plants to bear fruit due to the lack of sunlight (and the glow lamps apparently didn't compensate), the experiment ended up with some grown perch that provided a couple of fish fries and plants that Okay, now it's a hobby not a money saving idea, I accept that. So with that in mind, any advice you and others can continue to give me will be very much appreciated to make this work.
    OK let's talk about what you have to work with, and how to best utilize it. I don't care what you use it for, just tell the the best least painful (wallet) way to get the most bang for your buck$.

    OK you have 560 watts of panels. Or two 280 watt GT panels rated at Vmp = 31.9 and Imp = 8.78 amps. This gives you two battery voltage options of 12 or 24 volts. It is not a candidate for 48 volts because with both panels wired in series is 63 volts which falls short of 70 volt minimum requirement for a 48 volt battery charger. The answer you have to make is what battery voltage to use?. Normally I would say HIGHER VOLTAGE option is always right. There are some exceptions and one of those is RV Compatibility. Huge after market of 12 volt RV gadgets and gizmos for sale. Use something other than 12 volts, and you loose that perk. But if money talks, then the higher voltage 24 volts is the right voltage for you. Here is the wallet deal on battery voltage. Does not effect battery investment cost one little bit. Takes the exact same batteries and quantity.

    Where it hits your wallet is Charge Controllers and now let's talk about that. Most important decesion you have. First get over it, you must use a MPPT Controller. If you used 12 volt battery you turn your 560 watts into 210 watts of panels. At 24 volts same lousy 210 watts. So here is the money question. If you run 12 volt battery will require a 40 amp MPPT controller for $350. Run 24 volt battery and all you need is a 20 amp $200 controller. Another difference with MPPT controllers you actually get 560 watts out of a 560 watt system.

    Last word batteries. You already have 4 6-volt batteries. Experiment and learn with those. They will work for 12 or 24 volt with your panels just fine with the right charge controller. Then when the time comes replace them:

    For 12 volts min = 340 AH, max = 500 AH. somewhere in that range.
    For 24 volts min = 170 AH, max = 250 AH

    I suspect your golf cart batteries are 220 AH right? At 12 volts that is 440 AH and at 24 volts is 220 AH. It works. If you got it use it, perfect fit.

    Do that and your batteries can support up to 1 Kwh usable power per day. But hold your horses. Your panels may or may not be able to generate that much in a day. Depends on how the panels are installed, location, and time of year.

    So here is what I would recommend and I think most here will agree is as good as it gets for you.

    Panel Wattage = 560 watts
    24 volt 220 AH batteries, or 4 good 6-volt 225 AH batteries like Trojan T-105. Can also be 12 volt with 40 amp CC.
    Morningstar PS-MPPT-25 25 Amp Charge Controller. Good to 700 watt input @ 24 volts, 350 watts @ 12 volt battery
    1000 Watt 24 volt TSW Inverter.

    That would be an optimum matched system. With T-105 batteries at 24 volts can easily run a 1500 watt inverter. with proper care, attention to details with cabling requirements and workmanship. Having said that it does not mean you have to run a 1500 watt Inverter. It just means NO LARGER THAN 1500 watts. Always run as small of an Inverter as you can. Unless you gotta a microwave oven or toaster to run, 1000 watts may still be to much.

    Edit Note:

    Technically it is possible with the two panels could be forced to use as 48 volts. But doing so comes with consequences, limitations, and expense. Running at 63 volts, and you loose some of the advantage of using a MPPT Controller efficiency. At 48 volt battery magic happens inside MPPT controllers at 70 volts and higher input, they wake up at 95% or more efficiency. You defeat the purpose.

    At 48 volts you are not going to find any modes for 10 amps worth having. 48 volt systems are used for higher power systems of greater than 2000 watts. Means they do not make 48 volt controllers for lower power so you are now looking at a 30 to 40 amp model for $400. You can get 20 amps at 24 volts for $200.

    Regardless if you ggo with 12 or 24 volts, use a MPPT controller, and wire your panels in series. Make sure the CC you buy can handle 90 Voc minimum.
    Last edited by Sunking; 08-01-2016, 09:20 PM.
    MSEE, PE

    Comment

    • Cajun Bill
      Junior Member
      • Jul 2016
      • 66

      #47
      Thank you SK for the kind comments about my wife and the good advice. I will take it under advisement.

      Logan, sorry if I sounded a little testy, but if you read all the posts in this thread, you will understand that I am only seeking advice and, as you said, listening before I spend a dime. I have no preconceived notions that my original thoughts were accurate as evidenced by how this thread has progressed.

      Comment

      • Cajun Bill
        Junior Member
        • Jul 2016
        • 66

        #48
        Originally posted by Sunking

        Does not matter what kind of panels they are. The only thing it changes in my answer is to leave out the RV part. You need to run 24 volts, then you can use a less expensive 15 to 20 amp controller. MPPT Controllers has power input limitations based on battery voltage. So let say you have a 20 amp MPPT controller. Power Input vs Battery Voltage are.

        48 volts @ 1200 watts
        24 volts @ 600 watts
        12 volts @ 300 watts

        A good 20 amp MPPT Controller cost roughly $175 to $225. A good 40 amp unit cost around $350 to $400. So hopefully you can tell running 24 volts is a lot less expensive than 12 volt. Run 24 volts. You already have the batteries to do it.

        I just saved you $200
        SunKing, I'd like to go back to this post if you don't mind. I've been looking at some of the controllers recommended by you and others, specifically the SunSaver, but it seems these only go up to 15Amps and 400Watts. If my panels produce at max, they could produce tup to 560 Watts so I'm thinking that those who have said I need a 20A controller, running 24V, are right. Can you give me a source for a "good 20 amp MPPT Conroller that cost roughly $175 to $225" please? All the ones I look at are either much more expensive than that or appear to be "el cheapos". Can you or others assist with this question please?

        Comment

        • SunEagle
          Super Moderator
          • Oct 2012
          • 15125

          #49
          Originally posted by Cajun Bill

          SunKing, I'd like to go back to this post if you don't mind. I've been looking at some of the controllers recommended by you and others, specifically the SunSaver, but it seems these only go up to 15Amps and 400Watts. If my panels produce at max, they could produce tup to 560 Watts so I'm thinking that those who have said I need a 20A controller, running 24V, are right. Can you give me a source for a "good 20 amp MPPT Conroller that cost roughly $175 to $225" please? All the ones I look at are either much more expensive than that or appear to be "el cheapos". Can you or others assist with this question please?
          While not a high end unit the Tracer is a true MPPT CC. You can find their 20 Amp below $200.

          Although if it was me I would go with the Midnite Solar 30Amp KID. It costs more but is a much higher quality CC then the Tracer and is now going for less than $300 through the altE store.

          Comment

          • Sunking
            Solar Fanatic
            • Feb 2010
            • 23301

            #50
            Cajun have you looked at Morningstar Prostar? They come in 20 and 25 amps.
            MSEE, PE

            Comment

            • Cajun Bill
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2016
              • 66

              #51
              I could not find the 20A version for sale, but while searching, I found this Renogy one for sale at a very reasonable price. The reviews are very good, but it states the output is 'PWM' output. Not sure what that means, but is it a true MPPT controller? What are your thoughts on this one?

              Comment

              • Cajun Bill
                Junior Member
                • Jul 2016
                • 66

                #52
                I tried to post an answer (twice), but I get a message that it is "unapproved" and won't post. Not sure what is going on with that.

                Comment

                • Cajun Bill
                  Junior Member
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 66

                  #53
                  Okay, it appears it won't let me cut and paste the link for some reason. I found a Renogy MPPT with "PWM output" whatever that means for a very reasonable price and it has excellent reviews. It is a 12/24V version and will handle up to 1,000Watts of input. Do you know anything about that brand?

                  Comment


                  • ButchDeal
                    ButchDeal commented
                    Editing a comment
                    it will likely handle 1kw input at 24V output, and 500w input at 12V output.
                • Cajun Bill
                  Junior Member
                  • Jul 2016
                  • 66

                  #54
                  Sorry for the duped posts, but I kept getting some kind of "unapproved" message so I thought it was not posting, but it appears that they all posted. Anyway, any comments on the Renogy controller? Butchdeal, you are correct, but because I plan to run it on 24V, the 1kw is all I need.

                  Comment

                  • Sunking
                    Solar Fanatic
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 23301

                    #55
                    Originally posted by Cajun Bill
                    Could not find the 20A version, but I did find this one from Renology that has very good reviews at a very reasonable price. Too good to be true?

                    https://www.amazon.com/Renogy-MPPT-S...controller+20a
                    It means you do not want it. A PWM controller turns 560 watts of panels into 200 watts.
                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment

                    • SunEagle
                      Super Moderator
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 15125

                      #56
                      Originally posted by Cajun Bill
                      Sorry for the duped posts, but I kept getting some kind of "unapproved" message so I thought it was not posting, but it appears that they all posted. Anyway, any comments on the Renogy controller? Butchdeal, you are correct, but because I plan to run it on 24V, the 1kw is all I need.
                      Any time a post includes a link to a website it automatically gets unapproved until a Moderator can check it out. It then gets approved or deleted. That sometimes results in multiple posts if the MOD is in a hurry (like me) and does not delete the similar posts.

                      Comment

                      • Cajun Bill
                        Junior Member
                        • Jul 2016
                        • 66

                        #57
                        SunKing: So, I guess it is not a true MPPT controller? After reading a bunch of the reviews, it appears that I would need the system display anyway to really utilize it which would run up the cost. Looking like my choice will be to either get the Prostar (if I can find a source for the 20V version of that) or the Tracer. BTW, I just took one of the panels out and put it in the sun, which was straight up, and it produced 35V so if I wire them in series, that'll mean about 70V max.

                        SunEagle, thanks for the info, now I understand.

                        Still waiting to get my camper back so I can answer the rest of the questions I have.

                        Comment

                        • Sunking
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 23301

                          #58
                          Cajun I am giving you the best advice. Not only will it work, but the least expensive route to get your objective met. I understand it is more than you planned. But what you have planned will fail, and to fix it will cost you a lot more money than doing it right the first time. Morningstar and Midnight Solar make the best controllers for the money. Morningstar I like a little better because they are a little less expensive and tougher IMO. You cannot go wrong with either.
                          MSEE, PE

                          Comment

                          • Cajun Bill
                            Junior Member
                            • Jul 2016
                            • 66

                            #59
                            got it! thx

                            Comment

                            • Cajun Bill
                              Junior Member
                              • Jul 2016
                              • 66

                              #60
                              Just a quick note: got camper back today, but have not had time to analyze the batt AH nor to run my Kill-a-Watt meter on the fridge and freezer. i did notice, however, that my 12V PSW Xantrex inverter is 600W (not 1500W as I stated previously). Don't get excited SK, I agree that I will probably have to change that out for a 24V inverter. BTW, I will be "out of pocket" for the next few days, but asap, I will run all the numbers and repost to get the latest and greatest advice. thx again to all. I'm learning a lot from all this.

                              P.S. still waiting for neighbor to tell me if she will sell me the greenhouse so that will be part of my decision as to what I will end up trying to power.

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