pv system connected to sub-panel

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  • J.P.M.
    Solar Fanatic
    • Aug 2013
    • 14926

    #46
    Originally posted by McMac

    J.P.M. Knows whats up. Get your design appropriate for your usage or planned future usage. I feel ancient now cause I have this millennial in the office that snubs PV watts cause he uses S.A.M. either way, you gotta design for smart economics. I don't deal much with usage numbers anymore, but I am responsible for catching inefficient designs. but dont design to profit, i know this. you want a short ROI and then its all profit from your investment after that.
    Well, maybe. Opinions vary.

    It's been written (Duffie & Beckman, chap. 11, "Solar Process Economics") that: "Solar processes are generally characterized by high first cost and low operating/fuel costs. This leads to a comparison of an initial known investment (in the PV equipment), with estimated future operating costs/potential fuel cost savings.............
    The objective of the economic analysis can be viewed as the determination of the least cost method of meeting the energy need, considering both solar and non solar alternatives. For solar energy processes, the problem is to determine the size of the solar energy system that gives the lowest cost combination of solar and aux. energy. systems."

    Reducing an energy bill can be thought of as a way to make a profit, but it's not usually treated that way.

    There are any number of sources of information on process economics and life cycle costing. Duffie & Beckman is one. There are lots of others. It ain't rocket science, but it does take some knowledge of the time value of money, and life cycle costing. In any case, before spending perhaps ten's of thousands of dollars on a PV system, and/or DIY labor, a cost analysis that's a bit more sophisticated than the moron method of initial cost/annual savings and calling that "payback" may be warranted. PV systems are costly and can last a long time. It's thought by at least the smart money that spending time to learn and do some economics based on a long view, the time value of money and consideration/estimation of other factors such as discount rates, taxes, etc, can pay big dividends.

    SAM uses a method known as the LCOE (Levelized Cost of Energy) method. It's basically process economics on a cost per kWh basis. See the references in SAM for particulars. Or see the NREL website for more information.

    Whatever method chosen, if the lowest long term cost of meeting an energy need is one objective of getting solar, as is usually the case, some number crunching that's more than initial cost/initial savings is necessary. Often, such an analysis, if it uses realistic assumptions and time frames will show that solar energy is not the most cost effective way to meet an energy need, and may well be cost ineffective. What often happens then, even when folks understand the concepts (which is rare), is they wind up using unrealistic assumptions, like unrealistic time frames (say 30 yrs)., or impossible discount rates or very high salvage (resale) values, or etc. to justify a foregone decision based on lemming behavior and/or emotion, and back into a B.S. justification and call it sound economics, mostly (it would seem) because they used a lot of fancy formulas.

    As for SAM vs. PVWatts, SAM is pretty much PVWatts on steroids and can be useful if you know what you're doing and understand the engineering involved. FWIW, and IMO only, for most folks, using SAM can be like giving a loaded pistol to a 2 yr. old, with more than a few users not knowing as much as the diff. between a kW and a kWh. Maybe your millennial coworker is not one of those people. Anyway, for most initial sizing (and, for better or worse, usually final sizing as well), PVWatts is fit for purpose.

    One thing with SAM, if you use it, I'd suggest doing your own POCO tariff rates, or at least confirm the one's SAM uses. I've found SAM's rates for my POCO to be incorrect and incomplete after several years of use. Pass that on to your millennial coworker and tell him it's from a long retired P.E. prick.

    Comment

    • Jest Waitn
      Member
      • Mar 2017
      • 91

      #47
      Originally posted by J.P.M.
      One thing with SAM, if you use it, I'd suggest doing your own POCO tariff rates, or at least confirm the one's SAM uses. I've found SAM's rates for my POCO to be incorrect and incomplete after several years of use. Pass that on to your millennial coworker and tell him it's from a long retired P.E. prick.
      had to look up this S.A.M. to find out what was being discussed. like 2 things i've already seen in the SDK: linux 64-bit, and python!

      Comment

      • Jest Waitn
        Member
        • Mar 2017
        • 91

        #48
        Originally posted by Mike90250
        Be aware of "Line Loss" with these long runs from the solar, to main panel to utility pole or transformer. Any line loss will reflect a an increase in grid voltage, and at some point, the inverters start to shut down from overvoltage in your long line runs. Solution, shorter runs, heaver cable (or aluminum feed conductors)
        regarding this 'line loss', are string inverters 'better' at handling long runs than micro-inverters?

        Comment

        • sensij
          Solar Fanatic
          • Sep 2014
          • 5074

          #49
          Originally posted by Jest Waitn

          regarding this 'line loss', are string inverters 'better' at handling long runs than micro-inverters?
          Yes. Microinverters operate at line voltage (240 Vac), while string inverters can operate up to 500 Vdc, depending on panel selection and array design. The same power at higher voltage means less current. Less current means less loss.
          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

          Comment

          • McMac
            Junior Member
            • Mar 2016
            • 13

            #50
            Originally posted by Jest Waitn

            i have a military generator that outputs 208vac & 240vac. it's real loud. might even wake the dead. will run the entire house, but haven't had to use it.
            A three phase generator huh? Sounds cool. I'm not familiar with generators but I've been studying transformers and the many three phase configurations. If your saying it's a 240v and 208 at the t
            same time that definitely sounds like a high leg. So that means you'd get 240v from any leg to leg. But one phase is split just like your standard residential service. So that will give you 120v from leg to neutral for two of the legs. But the third leg to neutral give you 208v but it's not very stable which is why it's called a wild leg service. And if your not careful and you accidentally wire a 120v circuit with the high leg to neutral and fry your electronics with 208 or more volts, then you'll quickly realize why it's also called a stinger, or bastard leg.

            Comment

            • SunEagle
              Super Moderator
              • Oct 2012
              • 15125

              #51
              Originally posted by McMac

              A three phase generator huh? Sounds cool. I'm not familiar with generators but I've been studying transformers and the many three phase configurations. If your saying it's a 240v and 208 at the t
              same time that definitely sounds like a high leg. So that means you'd get 240v from any leg to leg. But one phase is split just like your standard residential service. So that will give you 120v from leg to neutral for two of the legs. But the third leg to neutral give you 208v but it's not very stable which is why it's called a wild leg service. And if your not careful and you accidentally wire a 120v circuit with the high leg to neutral and fry your electronics with 208 or more volts, then you'll quickly realize why it's also called a stinger, or bastard leg.
              That generator could have a dual winding output where it provides both 208Y and 240 Delta. The only issue would be how well the two output voltages are isolated so you do not make the mistake of plugging in the wrong load. My guess would be a different receptacle configuration (4 wire for the 208v and 3 wire for the 240v) for 3 phase loads.

              Comment

              • McMac
                Junior Member
                • Mar 2016
                • 13

                #52
                Originally posted by sensij

                690.8(B)(1)(a) disagrees with you.
                Thank you for that. I noticed the exception for devices listed for continuous operation @ 100% of it's rating, which makes me wonder how many if any breakers out there are rated for this.

                Comment

                • Jest Waitn
                  Member
                  • Mar 2017
                  • 91

                  #53
                  Originally posted by McMac

                  A three phase generator huh? Sounds cool. I'm not familiar with generators but I've been studying transformers and the many three phase configurations. If your saying it's a 240v and 208 at the t
                  same time that definitely sounds like a high leg. So that means you'd get 240v from any leg to leg. But one phase is split just like your standard residential service. So that will give you 120v from leg to neutral for two of the legs. But the third leg to neutral give you 208v but it's not very stable which is why it's called a wild leg service. And if your not careful and you accidentally wire a 120v circuit with the high leg to neutral and fry your electronics with 208 or more volts, then you'll quickly realize why it's also called a stinger, or bastard leg.
                  you connect the output to your system based on the configuration. so it won't produce 208 and 240 simultaneously at load. one or the other. it also has a 120v output.

                  Comment

                  • Jest Waitn
                    Member
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 91

                    #54
                    Originally posted by SunEagle

                    That generator could have a dual winding output where it provides both 208Y and 240 Delta. The only issue would be how well the two output voltages are isolated so you do not make the mistake of plugging in the wrong load. My guess would be a different receptacle configuration (4 wire for the 208v and 3 wire for the 240v) for 3 phase loads.
                    the MEP-002A 5KW military generator produces ~10kw at sea level. 5kw rating is for highest point on earth (thinnest air). i had this one tested at 9kw resistive load before buying.

                    Comment

                    • Jest Waitn
                      Member
                      • Mar 2017
                      • 91

                      #55
                      Originally posted by sensij

                      Yes. Microinverters operate at line voltage (240 Vac), while string inverters can operate up to 500 Vdc, depending on panel selection and array design. The same power at higher voltage means less current. Less current means less loss.
                      if there is an 'issue' with over-production, it should show on the 3kw system. i will then have to re-configure it as a string system. the distance to transformer won't change. i won't run dc beyond the array site.

                      Comment

                      • SunEagle
                        Super Moderator
                        • Oct 2012
                        • 15125

                        #56
                        Originally posted by Jest Waitn

                        the MEP-002A 5KW military generator produces ~10kw at sea level. 5kw rating is for highest point on earth (thinnest air). i had this one tested at 9kw resistive load before buying.
                        I see that the diesel generator will output 120v single phase 2 wire, 120/240 single phase 3 wire, as well as 120/208v 3 phase 4 wire. Interesting design but it does provide power for a multitude of different voltage loads.

                        Comment

                        • sensij
                          Solar Fanatic
                          • Sep 2014
                          • 5074

                          #57
                          Originally posted by McMac

                          Thank you for that. I noticed the exception for devices listed for continuous operation @ 100% of it's rating, which makes me wonder how many if any breakers out there are rated for this.
                          Eaton sells them 70 A and up. Not generally applicable to residential systems.
                          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                          Comment

                          • sensij
                            Solar Fanatic
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 5074

                            #58
                            Originally posted by Jest Waitn

                            if there is an 'issue' with over-production, it should show on the 3kw system. i will then have to re-configure it as a string system. the distance to transformer won't change. i won't run dc beyond the array site.
                            I don't understand your plan at all. Is your permit and interconnect agreement with your utility for 3 kW? Are you intending to pull another permit and revise the interconnect agreement for the expansions you are talking about?
                            CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                            Comment

                            • Jest Waitn
                              Member
                              • Mar 2017
                              • 91

                              #59
                              Originally posted by sensij

                              I don't understand your plan at all. Is your permit and interconnect agreement with your utility for 3 kW? Are you intending to pull another permit and revise the interconnect agreement for the expansions you are talking about?
                              yes, next year, to the revision.

                              Comment

                              • J.P.M.
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Aug 2013
                                • 14926

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Jest Waitn

                                yes, next year, to the revision.
                                Probably not super critical, but if you're planning to base future system size increases 1 year's output of a 3 kw system, are you aware that system output can change from yr. to yr. based solely on weather variation alone ?

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