Im a newbie and i need help with planning my system

[shadowaxe356]

The first thing I found when I started looking at installing a solar system was an article from 2008 in the NY Times, done by a reporter who was experimenting with a small system for a cabin his family lived in for the summer. The reporter complained "solar power isn't ready for prime time" or something like that. But in his data, it was evident his family of 5, with three kids taking baths, was using 2.7kWh per day for the water pump alone. By far it was the largest consuming item. People who commented on the story observed that they needed to find a way to reduce usage, and the water use was the prime candidate - and if so the author may have come to another conclusion. It is obvious that more use per day = more $$$ cost in the system. What others are pointing out, is that with solar power being so expensive relative to the grid, it makes sense to be as efficient as possible with your use.

My first steps were to understand my consumption, and reduce it where possible, before designing a system. To hear that people are just going to use power like it is going out of style, regardless of where it comes from - I think that is scaring people here. First of all, it means the cost went from expensive to even more expensive. A solar system needs to be monitored - are these "the well will never run dry" users going to have any interest in/respect for the system? From your description, it reminds me of my teen-aged brother who insisted on half-hour showers, which drove my parents crazy due to using so much hot water - in the old days of high flow heads.

I have tried to save power by limiting usage, running laundry at night, sealing the windows, switching bulbs over, more efficient water heater, washer and dryer. I still need the fridge and water pump for that but with the family's here running about 1kwh per tv/xbox set up x 3 rooms. Which get ran about 8 hours each a day because we all work different shifts. This is a large portion of the consumption but like I have mentioned when they move out I will probably be using the rest the house for my business which will take the same amount of power or more to run. The xbox and tvs alone put me at about 1000kwh a month. Not including the normally appliances that have to be plugged in 24/7 They will not reduce the amount of power they use and I cannot kick them out, the lease we have is a bit odd due to it dealing with my family and the owner of the house a family member. So if I need a system that generates 30kwh what's the best way of doing this, a grid tie with a genny?

[Living Large]

Its not that i'm not listening, i don't understand all the concepts going into this project which is why i asked for ever ones help. I appreciate you being considerate but half these people are not explaining things thorough enough for me. So if not battery's then a generator? Would i just run off the generators power when the lights go out and use no solar due to it being connected to the grid and the grid being down? I may sound paranoid but the main reason i want this system is so that im not controlled by the energy company's in the future. The property is in the family i will be getting the property because i'm renting to own and almost have it payed off.

The first thing I found when I started looking at installing a solar system was an article from 2008 in the NY Times, done by a reporter who was experimenting with a small system for a cabin his family lived in for the summer. The reporter complained "solar power isn't ready for prime time" or something like that. But in his data, it was evident his family of 5, with three kids taking baths, was using 2.7kWh per day for the water pump alone. By far it was the largest consuming item. People who commented on the story observed that they needed to find a way to reduce usage, and the water use was the prime candidate - and if so the author may have come to another conclusion. It is obvious that more use per day = more $$$ cost in the system. What others are pointing out, is that with solar power being so expensive relative to the grid, it makes sense to be as efficient as possible with your use.

My first steps were to understand my consumption, and reduce it where possible, before designing a system. To hear that people are just going to use power like it is going out of style, regardless of where it comes from - I think that is scaring people here. First of all, it means the cost went from expensive to even more expensive. A solar system needs to be monitored - are these "the well will never run dry" users going to have any interest in/respect for the system? From your description, it reminds me of my teen-aged brother who insisted on half-hour showers, which drove my parents crazy due to using so much hot water - in the old days of high flow heads.

[shadowaxe356]

Tyler the reason you are catching so much flack is you are not listening and refuse to apply simple logic and economics. There is no reason to ever switch to batteries. Here is what we see in you doing.

Imagine two gas stations side by side on a corner and you need gasoline. One station sells gas for $3/gal, and the other sells it for $30/gal with a 1 gallon limit. All of giving you flack go to the station for $3/gal for all we want, and you are the only one who pays $30/gal 1 gallon at a time. Wake up dude and listen.

Any power that comes from batteries is going to cost you many times more than buying it from the power company. To supply you with 1 Kwh/day (10-cents worth of electricity) battery cost are roughly $1200 for each Kwh. That battery on average if you treat it with TLC will last about 5 years until it needs replaced again at higher cost. In the 5 years that ! Kwh/day battery delivers 1865 Kwh. Just in battery cost alone works out to $1200 / 1865 Kwh = $0.64/Kwh. You can buy that same Kwh from the power company for 10 to 15 cents with no limit.

However you only want to use the batteries once in a while whenever you think it is convenient. Regardless if you use the batteries are not, they still need replaced in this case in 5 to 7 years. Let's say in 6 years you use it 100 times. Your Kwh cost now are roughly $1200 / 100 Kwh = $12/Kwh.

So quit being that fool who pays $30/gal. Listen to us old fools who have been there and already made the stupid mistakes.

Its not that i'm not listening, i don't understand all the concepts going into this project which is why i asked for ever ones help. I appreciate you being considerate but half these people are not explaining things thorough enough for me. So if not battery's then a generator? Would i just run off the generators power when the lights go out and use no solar due to it being connected to the grid and the grid being down? I may sound paranoid but the main reason i want this system is so that im not controlled by the energy company's in the future. The property is in the family i will be getting the property because i'm renting to own and almost have it payed off.

[Sunking]

Man, people just give up on the younger generation.... I just want the ability to switch over to battery's when I am finished with the rest the system, if I need to.

Tyler the reason you are catching so much flack is you are not listening and refuse to apply simple logic and economics. There is no reason to ever switch to batteries. Here is what we see in you doing.

Imagine two gas stations side by side on a corner and you need gasoline. One station sells gas for $3/gal, and the other sells it for $30/gal with a 1 gallon limit. All of giving you flack go to the station for $3/gal for all we want, and you are the only one who pays $30/gal 1 gallon at a time. Wake up dude and listen.

Any power that comes from batteries is going to cost you many times more than buying it from the power company. To supply you with 1 Kwh/day (10-cents worth of electricity) battery cost are roughly $1200 for each Kwh. That battery on average if you treat it with TLC will last about 5 years until it needs replaced again at higher cost. In the 5 years that ! Kwh/day battery delivers 1865 Kwh. Just in battery cost alone works out to $1200 / 1865 Kwh = $0.64/Kwh. You can buy that same Kwh from the power company for 10 to 15 cents with no limit.

However you only want to use the batteries once in a while whenever you think it is convenient. Regardless if you use the batteries are not, they still need replaced in this case in 5 to 7 years. Let's say in 6 years you use it 100 times. Your Kwh cost now are roughly $1200 / 100 Kwh = $12/Kwh.

So quit being that fool who pays $30/gal. Listen to us old fools who have been there and already made the stupid mistakes.

[Mike90250]

I don’t own the house I’m in and I cannot make changes to anything that the house uses

uh, what part of this do I not understand ? Are your parents (family) the owners? Do you expect to inherit the property? if you invest into all the solar gear and someone else takes the property, or you loose it in Probate (lawyers know exactly how much an estate is worth, and they settle just as soon as their fees reach 90% of the estate value). You are up the Creek with no paddle.

You are looking at a HUGE investment in Solar, but if you are not able to undertake the first step of Conservation of power, you are going to be screwing only yourself. I don't know you, but I still care about solar getting a bad rap, from an installation that is being run bassackwards.

The $10K you spend in efficiency, saves you $30k short term, and even more long term. But don't take some strangers advice off the internet, you seem to have your plan all set up.

[Mike90250]

.....

But your first action to to find a way to convince the others to use less electricity. That will have an immediate result of reducing your costs. Letting them continue to use a lot of power only to have you spend big dollars to install the solar will more than likely end up just convincing them to use more "free" power which will cost you a lot more. The best way to save money on your electric bill is to use less. Installing solar may not get you what you want.

Exactly what I was going to say, but you beat me to it. We have solar, so it's all free !!! And we have to have backup generator, 'cause if power goes off, I'd be lost.

Buy me a pony daddy.

[sensij]

I want a large system and the only way im going to settle for less would be if its impossible to do or I can find something that will still meet my power needs for less.

You know what will meet your power needs for less? Your power company.

[shadowaxe356]

I understand your position and feel your pain. If other people are currently running up your electric bill then installing solar is not going to immediately save you money. Small systems take years to pay back what you first pay to get them installed. Larger systems can take longer.

My suggestion for you is to continue to do the research in what type of system you really "need" and start saving to get it installed.

But your first action to to find a way to convince the others to use less electricity. That will have an immediate result of reducing your costs. Letting them continue to use a lot of power only to have you spend big dollars to install the solar will more than likely end up just convincing them to use more "free" power which will cost you a lot more. The best way to save money on your electric bill is to use less. Installing solar may not get you what you want.

The pay back dosent matter to me, I know that may baffle some of you but the way I see it is rather im going to add to the house value and sell it or im going to keep it in my family till its completely outdated. I want a large system and the only way im going to settle for less would be if its impossible to do or I can find something that will still meet my power needs for less. What do you mean by the system I really need? I have tried to implement energy saving things but the majority of the people that live with me are my elder family. Im 23 and everyone pretty much lives with me, have no respect and will not use less. The solar power is for myself, when they move out I will be converting there part of the house into my work area, where I will be working with all sorts of power tools and other things that use electricity. So even when they leave I will still be using the same or close electricity for my side job, wood working, other home improvement projects, and more.

[SunEagle]

I know the cost will be high, and I want to have 100% offset. I am using to much energy and I can not limit what I already use. I live with to many people and they all have to many things they refuse to unplug. That is why im trying to go for the big system. This system will run one house, with two family in it at 100% efficiency having to pay only in the winter months for any electric. Currently we used 2,950KWH last month so im using that month as a bases for all the months. Even without it being winter I still had an electric bill that was 2,100 KWH a month on average. The family that lives in the duplex will be adding some money for the system but not a lot due to the length of there stay.

I understand your position and feel your pain. If other people are currently running up your electric bill then installing solar is not going to immediately save you money. Small systems take years to pay back what you first pay to get them installed. Larger systems can take longer.

My suggestion for you is to continue to do the research in what type of system you really "need" and start saving to get it installed.

But your first action to to find a way to convince the others to use less electricity. That will have an immediate result of reducing your costs. Letting them continue to use a lot of power only to have you spend big dollars to install the solar will more than likely end up just convincing them to use more "free" power which will cost you a lot more. The best way to save money on your electric bill is to use less. Installing solar may not get you what you want.

[shadowaxe356]

Tyler

On a serious side we are trying to help you understand the size and cost of what you want to do. Sure you can save money by installing it yourself but you first need to meet all your local building code requirements which will include engineered drawings submitted to the city for a permit. You also need to meet all of your POCO's requirements before you can connect to the Grid.

You also should determine how much of your electric bill you want a solar pv system to offset. Going more than 50% is usually not cost effective unless you are using a lot and paying a very high $/kWh. And adding batteries as a backup makes the system into something that will never pay for itself.

My suggestion is to look at a smaller system around 8 to 10kw that will be grid tied to your POCO. Then if you want an emergency power backup look into getting a couple of generators using different types of fuel (gas and propane) to give you some overlap. Using batteries for emergency backup will be too expensive and really can't be justified if you have a connection to the grid.

Now start saving your money and hopefully in a couple of years the technology will have improved where panels can produce more and cost less and maybe there will be some type of power "storage" less expensive then it is now.

I know the cost will be high, and I want to have 100% offset. I am using to much energy and I can not limit what I already use. I live with to many people and they all have to many things they refuse to unplug. That is why im trying to go for the big system. This system will run one house, with two family in it at 100% efficiency having to pay only in the winter months for any electric. Currently we used 2,950KWH last month so im using that month as a bases for all the months. Even without it being winter I still had an electric bill that was 2,100 KWH a month on average. The family that lives in the duplex will be adding some money for the system but not a lot due to the length of there stay.

[SunEagle]

Man, people just give up on the younger generation....
So that everyone knows I wont be able to have this system running or set up for probably another two years, Im hoping that something (product wise) comes out to help with some of the bigger issues or that I can make enough to support the system that I need. So any information or side subject that helps me learn about solar panels and systems is not waited time. I don't really want the battery's for the system off the rip, I will defiantly use the power/credits from the amount I would be producing with the on grid system I would like. I just want the ability to switch over to battery's when I am finished with the rest the system, if I need to. So I would like to start with a hybrid system that way I don't waste money down the road by purchasing a on grid inverter and halving to switch that out to a hybrid and get new permits etc for it. If this project will be 100k+ then I would still want to know the set up and what I need because i'm 23, I have time to collect money and resources.

Tyler

On a serious side we are trying to help you understand the size and cost of what you want to do. Sure you can save money by installing it yourself but you first need to meet all your local building code requirements which will include engineered drawings submitted to the city for a permit. You also need to meet all of your POCO's requirements before you can connect to the Grid.

You also should determine how much of your electric bill you want a solar pv system to offset. Going more than 50% is usually not cost effective unless you are using a lot and paying a very high $/kWh. And adding batteries as a backup makes the system into something that will never pay for itself.

My suggestion is to look at a smaller system around 8 to 10kw that will be grid tied to your POCO. Then if you want an emergency power backup look into getting a couple of generators using different types of fuel (gas and propane) to give you some overlap. Using batteries for emergency backup will be too expensive and really can't be justified if you have a connection to the grid.

Now start saving your money and hopefully in a couple of years the technology will have improved where panels can produce more and cost less and maybe there will be some type of power "storage" less expensive then it is now.

[Living Large]

Man, people just give up on the younger generation....
So that everyone knows I wont be able to have this system running or set up for probably another two years, Im hoping that something (product wise) comes out to help with some of the bigger issues or that I can make enough to support the system that I need. So any information or side subject that helps me learn about solar panels and systems is not waited time. I don't really want the battery's for the system off the rip, I will defiantly use the power/credits from the amount I would be producing with the on grid system I would like. I just want the ability to switch over to battery's when I am finished with the rest the system, if I need to. So I would like to start with a hybrid system that way I don't waste money down the road by purchasing a on grid inverter and halving to switch that out to a hybrid and get new permits etc for it. If this project will be 100k+ then I would still want to know the set up and what I need because i'm 23, I have time to collect money and resources.

The wagged figure of $100K was if you had batteries in a typical setup with a daily usage like you mentioned - which it sounds like you won't have - so scratch that.

[shadowaxe356]

Man, people just give up on the younger generation....
So that everyone knows I wont be able to have this system running or set up for probably another two years, Im hoping that something (product wise) comes out to help with some of the bigger issues or that I can make enough to support the system that I need. So any information or side subject that helps me learn about solar panels and systems is not waited time. I don't really want the battery's for the system off the rip, I will defiantly use the power/credits from the amount I would be producing with the on grid system I would like. I just want the ability to switch over to battery's when I am finished with the rest the system, if I need to. So I would like to start with a hybrid system that way I don't waste money down the road by purchasing a on grid inverter and halving to switch that out to a hybrid and get new permits etc for it. If this project will be 100k+ then I would still want to know the set up and what I need because i'm 23, I have time to collect money and resources.

[Sunking]

It is kind of sad that the discussion keeps getting side tracked concerning micro processors and shade.

The point is the system the OP wants is HUGE. He wants something > 30kw tied to the grid, with batteries and not use a generator.

Does anyone see a problem with this concept?

Yeah and exactly why I am not going to help. Will never happen.

[Living Large]

It is kind of sad that the discussion keeps getting side tracked concerning micro processors and shade.

The point is the system the OP wants is HUGE. He wants something > 30kw tied to the grid, with batteries and not use a generator.

Does anyone see a problem with this concept? Even with a 48 volt battery system we are talking about 625 amps of charge controllers (30,000 watts / 48 volts = 625 amps).

I don't care if he can find panels < $1/watt the cost for panels, CC's, batteries, etc. will still be in excess of $50,000.

Agree 100%. There are multiple aspects that one could get into, but starting with the big picture seems wise. I'm grabbing some popcorn, because this one has potential. That's a mighty large system - if he has batteries couldn't it be more like $100K+? And that is without a generator.