Off grid solar with plan to power an electric car

[SunEagle]

I think some of you in here can't adjust to the idea that in diferent parts of the world is not America. You guys quote some mind bogging numbers that have no bearing in other parts on the planet.

I agree that most households in America us much more power then those in other countries. But to think the OP is only using 250 watt hours daily is very hard for me to grasp since that is next to nothing so I feel that estimate is incorrect.

[NEOH]

I think some of you in here can't adjust to the idea that in diferent parts of the world is not America. You guys quote some mind bogging numbers that have no bearing in other parts on the planet.

I agree.
The "old-timers" have not realized that the prices for PV Kits have fallen dramatically.
Heck, their prices don't even make sense in my part of the USA !

A neighbor down the road, just installed a 3.2 KW Grid-Tie System on his barn for just over $5,000.
His net cost is $3,500 = $5,000 - $1,500 rebate
Payback is $3,270 = 3,.2KW x 80% x 5 Sun Hours x 365 days x $0.10 per KWHr x 7 Years
So he has pre-paid his electric bill for 7 year, in the hopes of getting an additional 13 years FREE, over the next 20 year period.
He still has to pay a small "connection fee".

The prices that are quoted on this website are somewhere between extremely unrealistic and insane for DIY.
Real World calculates at $1 NET per Watt for DIY.

All of the old-timers reading this, just shot their coffee out their nostrils or fell off their rocking chairs in shock

[max2k]

I think some of you in here can't adjust to the idea that in diferent parts of the world is not America. You guys quote some mind bogging numbers that have no bearing in other parts on the planet.

please educate us then- what is your daily load demands and what are those loads? Are you in the same climate zone as OP 59 deg latitude?

I can easily imagine someone living in the tropical forest using wood to boil the water, having toilet 'behind the trees' and washing their clothes as part of swimming in nearby river. In that environment 0.25kWh might get you by or you can forego it altogether.

I'm well aware of Northern Territories folks and their lifestyle which doesn't involve electricity either. None of these places have any use for EV as the reason for low electricity demand is their very manual labor intensive way of living. Cabin fever escape, eh?

Problem with OP is he sounds like he never tried to live like that and got his electricity usage numbers from the news. I feel sorry for his daughter - there's no point in 21st century to 'go back to the roots' to prove anything. Yes, you will probably survive but then looking back few years later and asking yourself: "What the ... I've been busy with?" you might come to conclusion: 'wasting my life'. The secret of course is to never look back and ask such questions .

[max2k]

I agree.
The "old-timers" have not realized that the prices for PV Kits have fallen dramatically.
Heck, their prices don't even make sense in my part of the USA !

A neighbor down the road, just installed a 3.2 KW Grid-Tie System on his barn for just over $5,000.
His net cost is $3,500 = $5,000 - $1,500 rebate
Payback is $3,270 = 3,.2KW x 80% x 5 Sun Hours x 365 days x $0.10 per KWHr x 7 Years
So he has pre-paid his electric bill for 7 year, in the hopes of getting an additional 13 years FREE, over the next 20 year period.
He still has to pay a small "connection fee".

The prices that are quoted on this website are somewhere between extremely unrealistic and insane for DIY.
Real World calculates at $1 NET per Watt for DIY.

All of the old-timers reading this, just shot their coffee out their nostrils or fell off their rocking chairs in shock

Did he have to pull permit? That alone costs almost $500 around here and requires (for a reason) to meet certain equipment requirements. You could probably trade some safety for the cost in more rural area but then this makes it not comparable to other places. My own cost for DIY was $2.00/W (before rebate) and while some of the choices I made led to increased cost I can't imagine getting it down to even $1.50/W without serious trade offs.

[J.P.M.]

Did he have to pull permit? That alone costs almost $500 around here and requires (for a reason) to meet certain equipment requirements. You could probably trade some safety for the cost in more rural area but then this makes it not comparable to other places. My own cost for DIY was $2.00/W (before rebate) and while some of the choices I made led to increased cost I can't imagine getting it down to even $1.50/W without serious trade offs.

Not speaking for him at all, but I think Sensij got away for < a buck 50/Watt for a grid tied system. But I'd be surprised if a well engineered and fit for purpose grid tied system could be purchased and constructed by a knowledgeable DIYer for much less than that. Off grid would be much more.

[SunEagle]

I agree.
The "old-timers" have not realized that the prices for PV Kits have fallen dramatically.
Heck, their prices don't even make sense in my part of the USA !

A neighbor down the road, just installed a 3.2 KW Grid-Tie System on his barn for just over $5,000.
His net cost is $3,500 = $5,000 - $1,500 rebate
Payback is $3,270 = 3,.2KW x 80% x 5 Sun Hours x 365 days x $0.10 per KWHr x 7 Years
So he has pre-paid his electric bill for 7 year, in the hopes of getting an additional 13 years FREE, over the next 20 year period.
He still has to pay a small "connection fee".

The prices that are quoted on this website are somewhere between extremely unrealistic and insane for DIY.
Real World calculates at $1 NET per Watt for DIY.

All of the old-timers reading this, just shot their coffee out their nostrils or fell off their rocking chairs in shock

Some places in the US allow a home owner to perform 100% of a grid tie DIY others allow 0%. The realistic % is somewhere in between which will raise the cost per watt.

But why are you comparing a Grid Tie cost to an Off Grid cost? The cost of energy storage or batteries can easily add 100% or more to a simple solar pv system. And that is what the OP wants to do not a DIY grid tie.

[Raul]

please educate us then- what is your daily load demands and what are those loads? Are you in the same climate zone as OP 59 deg latitude?

I can easily imagine someone living in the tropical forest using wood to boil the water, having toilet 'behind the trees' and washing their clothes as part of swimming in nearby river. In that environment 0.25kWh might get you by or you can forego it altogether.

I'm well aware of Northern Territories folks and their lifestyle which doesn't involve electricity either. None of these places have any use for EV as the reason for low electricity demand is their very manual labor intensive way of living. Cabin fever escape, eh?

Problem with OP is he sounds like he never tried to live like that and got his electricity usage numbers from the news. I feel sorry for his daughter - there's no point in 21st century to 'go back to the roots' to prove anything. Yes, you will probably survive but then looking back few years later and asking yourself: "What the ... I've been busy with?" you might come to conclusion: 'wasting my life'. The secret of course is to never look back and ask such questions .

I'm sure the OP has messed up on calculation to come up with 0.25kwh daily but , I can tell you for sure for less than $7000 you can build a robust system to yield a minimum 2kwh a day in the winter months at 52deg north. I have a off grid at 47.6deg north with a 3800wp array east west and can afford to waste 2.5kwh a day on top of house vampire loads in the worst of the winter storms. In Europe PV is cheap , Batteries can be had on offer at the right time to buy. Also you can have a plug in hybrid and use the excess power when available and wen cloudy for weeks the use gas. People adjust.

[SunEagle]

I'm sure the OP has messed up on calculation to come up with 0.25kwh daily but , I can tell you for sure for less than $7000 you can build a robust system to yield a minimum 2kwh a day in the winter months at 52deg north. I have a off grid at 47.6deg north with a 3800wp array east west and can afford to waste 2.5kwh a day on top of house vampire loads in the worst of the winter storms. In Europe PV is cheap , Batteries can be had on offer at the right time to buy. Also you can have a plug in hybrid and use the excess power when available and wen cloudy for weeks the use gas. People adjust.

And that $7000 for a 2kWh system actually falls into the range of costs that I provided. The problem is that system will never charge an EV. You will spend more than double that amount which is getting close to that $15k price to connect to the grid.

Why not connect to the grid an then install a grid tie solar pv system. It will eventually pay for itself and if sized big enough be able to charge an EV without taking away from any other electrical needs.

[Raul]

It is not a 2kwh system. I can easily harvest 4kwh a day in winter IF I got use for it. I was conservative in the case of stormy /overcast weather. Besides the cost in EU where I believe the OP he's referi g to , it's not like in US even if you put the grid in equation. Some countries will not alow grid tie so you are not encouraged to have grid in the first place. They actually fine you for reactive power or any exces you dump in, let alone get paid for it. You lot over there enjoy while it lasts. The big hungry utilities don't like competition. They lobby and you get legislated out. End off . That's why many new build outside of grid coverage tend to go off grid instead of investing to bring the grid to them.

[SunEagle]

It is not a 2kwh system. I can easily harvest 4kwh a day in winter IF I got use for it. I was conservative in the case of stormy /overcast weather. Besides the cost in EU where I believe the OP he's referi g to , it's not like in US even if you put the grid in equation. Some countries will not alow grid tie so you are not encouraged to have grid in the first place. They actually fine you for reactive power or any exces you dump in, let alone get paid for it. You lot over there enjoy while it lasts. The big hungry utilities don't like competition. They lobby and you get legislated out. End off . That's why many new build outside of grid coverage tend to go off grid instead of investing to bring the grid to them.

Ok so in some places grid tie solar is not possible. Then you go off grid if you really need to install solar and pay the price.

Your money your choice.

My money says I would be stupid to go off grid.

[Mike90250]

The first thing is for the OP to confirm the expected power usage, and to get a realistic annual solar forecast for his site.

But really, it's not fair to tell neophytes, sure go ahead, spend $7K and build a tiny system. And then find out they need to spend another 10K because they didn't know what questions to ask..

[SunEagle]

The first thing is for the OP to confirm the expected power usage, and to get a realistic annual solar forecast for his site.

But really, it's not fair to tell neophytes, sure go ahead, spend $7K and build a tiny system. And then find out they need to spend another 10K because they didn't know what questions to ask..

I believe I tried to convince the OP as well as a few others that going off grid is both expensive and a life style change. But at some point I get tired of beating my head against a wall trying to convince them that they are not thinking out the whole plan so at some point I give up and say let them do what they want since it really is their money and I really do not have a say in how they spend it..

[max2k]

It is not a 2kwh system. I can easily harvest 4kwh a day in winter IF I got use for it. I was conservative in the case of stormy /overcast weather. Besides the cost in EU where I believe the OP he's referi g to , it's not like in US even if you put the grid in equation. Some countries will not alow grid tie so you are not encouraged to have grid in the first place. They actually fine you for reactive power or any exces you dump in, let alone get paid for it. You lot over there enjoy while it lasts. The big hungry utilities don't like competition. They lobby and you get legislated out. End off . That's why many new build outside of grid coverage tend to go off grid instead of investing to bring the grid to them.

It would help if you could provide numbers in easier to consume format, like:
going DYI I spent $2.00/W on 7.3kW grid tied system (no battery). At my location that system produces up to 48kWh per day in the peak season. Cost of electricity here varies from $0.13 / kWh to $0.34 / kWh depending on the time of the day and season. My load demand is around 20kWh / day when AC is off and close to 60kWh/day during 2-3 months of AC season. My electric bill varied from $100 to $300+ depending if it was AC month or not to the total of $2,200 / year.

What are your numbers in the same terms? If you have battery please specify its type, DC voltage, capacity in Ah, SOC you drain it to daily and the associated costs (batteries/charge controller/inverter). This would let us see better picture and understand if EU is any better in that sense than US.

[J.P.M.]

I believe I tried to convince the OP as well as a few others that going off grid is both expensive and a life style change. But at some point I get tired of beating my head against a wall trying to convince them that they are not thinking out the whole plan so at some point I give up and say let them do what they want since it really is their money and I really do not have a say in how they spend it..

+1 to all of that.

But, the question arises, at what point do you tell someone that you sincerely believe they are, mostly through their ignorance, doing things that will, in all likelihood, lead to outcomes they are completely unaware of and will not be good ?

And, often unspoken/written, but I'd suggest equally or maybe even more important, is there any responsibility to continue to express such opinions in other threads considering the likelihood that you and an OP's posts are being read by others, and thus influencing others who may be considering the same things as OP, and are equally ignorant of the bad outcome that a consensus of lot of people much more informed than the OP share ?

Ignorance is bliss. That may be one reason why many folks who show up here looking for validation of an idea, or maybe worse, a system, or a lifestyle choice that is going to come to a bad outcome based on their ignorance, get their ego bruised and also get pissed when informed consensus tells them their ideas and/or actions are headed for a bad end based on their ignorance of the realities of the situation. Add to that a lack of understanding that the word ignorance, when used as a noun, is an optional state of affairs they can do something about and not a pejorative opinion of their worth as a human being.

So, two sets of folks: One, an OP, who's likely to continue or already gone down the path, and two, others considering but not yet committed to the same path. Both have freedom of choice which includes the option of ignoring any opinions or advice. Maybe the second group might like to hear a different opinion ? FWIW, those second group folks are the ones I consider at least as much as an OP.

One way to look at life is as a set of probabilities. Once in a while, if advice/information is good and accurate in the sense that it's a pretty good match with reality, for folks who read/listen/learn, probability is things can improve for them. If folks get advice that's poor or also based on ignorance, probability is things won't improve for them.

So, to the degree that accurate information (and opinion) is more prevalent than bad/ignorant/B.S stuff, the probability of slowing down the inevitable and additional increase in entropy and its consequences caused by inaccurate/ignorant/B.S. information is higher. Good information, defined as information that matches reality and can be demonstrated as such, leads to better outcomes. Bad information, defined as information that doesn't match reality, leads to poorer outcomes and needs to be called out as B.S. if things are to improve.

Bottom line: This is a place to share opinions and information, and to learn stuff. Opinions vary. Some opinions and information is B.S.

More informed and experienced members will improve the quality and accuracy of the information whether it's well received or not.

[SunEagle]

+1 to all of that.

But, the question arises, at what point do you tell someone that you sincerely believe they are, mostly through their ignorance, doing things that will, in all likelihood, lead to outcomes they are completely unaware of and will not be good ?

And, often unspoken/written, but I'd suggest equally or maybe even more important, is there any responsibility to continue to express such opinions in other threads considering the likelihood that you and an OP's posts are being read by others, and thus influencing others who may be considering the same things as OP, and are equally ignorant of the bad outcome that a consensus of lot of people much more informed than the OP share ?

Ignorance is bliss. That may be one reason why many folks who show up here looking for validation of an idea, or maybe worse, a system, or a lifestyle choice that is going to come to a bad outcome based on their ignorance, get their ego bruised and also get pissed when informed consensus tells them their ideas and/or actions are headed for a bad end based on their ignorance of the realities of the situation. Add to that a lack of understanding that the word ignorance, when used as a noun, is an optional state of affairs they can do something about and not a pejorative opinion of their worth as a human being.

So, two sets of folks: One, an OP, who's likely to continue or already gone down the path, and two, others considering but not yet committed to the same path. Both have freedom of choice which includes the option of ignoring any opinions or advice. Maybe the second group might like to hear a different opinion ? FWIW, those second group folks are the ones I consider at least as much as an OP.

One way to look at life is as a set of probabilities. Once in a while, if advice/information is good and accurate in the sense that it's a pretty good match with reality, for folks who read/listen/learn, probability is things can improve for them. If folks get advice that's poor or also based on ignorance, probability is things won't improve for them.

So, to the degree that accurate information (and opinion) is more prevalent than bad/ignorant/B.S stuff, the probability of slowing down the inevitable and additional increase in entropy and its consequences caused by inaccurate/ignorant/B.S. information is higher. Good information, defined as information that matches reality and can be demonstrated as such, leads to better outcomes. Bad information, defined as information that doesn't match reality, leads to poorer outcomes and needs to be called out as B.S. if things are to improve.

Bottom line: This is a place to share opinions and information, and to learn stuff. Opinions vary. Some opinions and information is B.S.

More informed and experienced members will improve the quality and accuracy of the information whether it's well received or not.

I agree with what you posted. Maybe I am getting too old to tussle with the new comers to solar technology.

I do not possess the cost factor for solar every place in the world along with any restrictions their POCO's set concerning grid tie.

While I try to provide the best advice I do have to realize it is based on my knowledge of solar and work experience as an electrical engineer here in the US yet there are a lot of members and visitors that come to this forum from all over the world.

I just need to remind myself of their different perception and goals which may make my advice useless.