Excited about everything solar....disillusioned by cost and complexity

[SunEagle]

I had no idea that in order to get a longer life span out of batteries youd need more of them, but it makes sense if you distribute the discharge between more batteries. Seems like no one is doing this though, all the projects you see on youtube you never hear about needing 5x more. Thats way too much $$ :

What if you just wanted to charge an electric car at night?
What if you chose another battery tech?

Does this 5x principle still apply?

It comes down to the type of battery and how deep a discharge you can go to get the most cycles out. Most FLA last longer by not discharging more than 20% which is 1/5 the total battery system Watt hour rating. Yes it is expensive but those people on youtube won't come back and tell you that their battery system failed after a couple of years due to over discharging. by that time they are long gone and won't be posting new videos.

The choice is yours to make on how much you want to abuse your batteries. That is why we tell people to install a low cost "test" system for their first battery. That way you learn what it can do without over spending and if they fail early you are not out a lot of money.

[Mike90250]

.....What if you just wanted to charge an electric car at night?.....

That has to be done with grid power. No nighttime solar.
Can be done with Grid Tie, and you use the grid as your giant battery. Drive at day, Panels spin your meter backwards daytime, Charge at night cheap rates.

[SunEagle]

That has to be done with grid power. No nighttime solar.
Can be done with Grid Tie, and you use the grid as your giant battery. Drive at day, Panels spin your meter backwards daytime, Charge at night cheap rates.

Not everyone gets cheaper power at night compared to daytime.

But I agree with you that with an EV, the best way to charge it is from the grid. Doing it with batteries does not make financial sense or even logical.

Why would I charge a battery system (EV) from a battery system? Way too much in losses of electricity and money.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

I had no idea that in order to get a longer life span out of batteries youd need more of them, but it makes sense if you distribute the discharge between more batteries. Seems like no one is doing this though, all the projects you see on youtube you never hear about needing 5x more. Thats way too much $$ :

What if you just wanted to charge an electric car at night?
What if you chose another battery tech?

Does this 5x principle still apply?

What are the qualifications of those posting on U-Tube. Most of what I've seen are green idiots trying to justify there poorly designed systems. Sure they work when you first put them together or well enough to make a video, but they never post showing them working after 4 or 5 years or show the system after running for a few weeks. Look at the data and spec sheets for batteries. They tell you how many cycles they should last at different daily discharges. Spend some time at http://batteryuniversity.com/ and learn the truth about batteries.

How are you going to charge the car at night after a cloudy day if you used all the power charging it the night before? Without autonomy built into the system you're in the dark after every cloudy day. Battery technology can't overcome that.

The 5X is a minimum for a 95% system. That is it will supply power 95% of the time. The other 5% is made up by your generator. Want more you need to build in longer autonomy.

WWW

[J.P.M.]

What are the qualifications of those posting on U-Tube. Most of what I've seen are green idiots trying to justify there poorly designed systems. Sure they work when you first put them together or well enough to make a video, but they never post showing them working after 4 or 5 years or show the system after running for a few weeks. Look at the data and spec sheets for batteries. They tell you how many cycles they should last at different daily discharges. Spend some time at http://batteryuniversity.com/ and learn the truth about batteries.

How are you going to charge the car at night after a cloudy day if you used all the power charging it the night before? Without autonomy built into the system you're in the dark after every cloudy day. Battery technology can't overcome that.

The 5X is a minimum for a 95% system. That is it will supply power 95% of the time. The other 5% is made up by your generator. Want more you need to build in longer autonomy.

WWW

Once there was "Reader's Digest". It seems that U-tube has become the new idiot's bible.

[NothingInCommon]

My thinking was that if I had a bank the same size (or a bit bigger) as Kwh of the battery in the car I could use them to charge the car at night. ( this was before I knew about 5x)

My goal was to use as little from the grid as possible. I guess im one of those green idiots that likes the idea of generating power from solar but obviously its cost prohibitive and i have to scale back my expectations considerably.

Seems like the consensus here is grid tie without batteries.

I do have fear that laws will be passed everywhere that will make this less appealing. We are at the mercy of elected officials and the power companies. When solar hits "critical mass" I have a feeling the power companies will screw us like they just did in Indiana. They nearly just got away with it in Florida.

[NothingInCommon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kXTqNqxK3s

I know its Li-Ion , but I just saw this video and thought if this really lasted 10-20 years it would be WELL worth the 15K he spent.

Is this guy full of cr@p?

[SunEagle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kXTqNqxK3s



I know its Li-Ion , but I just saw this video and thought if this really lasted 10-20 years it would be WELL worth the 15K he spent.

Is this guy full of cr@p?

As of now there is really no way of knowing if a Li-Ion battery will last 10 to 20 years at any amount of discharge.

I am sure you can get a battery to last a long time if you use it exactly the way the manufacturer states. But to get the cycle count they advertise you must be under lab conditions and be very diligent in following the proper charging/discharging protocol.

Hopefully some day a better battery (fill in the chemistry you want) will not only last a long time but will deliver the kWh cycle count that makes it both affordable and requires low maintenance to keep it working.

[J.P.M.]

My thinking was that if I had a bank the same size (or a bit bigger) as Kwh of the battery in the car I could use them to charge the car at night. ( this was before I knew about 5x)

My goal was to use as little from the grid as possible. I guess im one of those green idiots that likes the idea of generating power from solar but obviously its cost prohibitive and i have to scale back my expectations considerably.

Seems like the consensus here is grid tie without batteries.

I do have fear that laws will be passed everywhere that will make this less appealing. We are at the mercy of elected officials and the power companies. When solar hits "critical mass" I have a feeling the power companies will screw us like they just did in Indiana. They nearly just got away with it in Florida.

You are probably not an idiot. Solar ignorant maybe, but that's pretty common. As for what sounds like some resigned helplessness on your part as regards to being at the mercy of the system, opinions vary, but we all have the power of choice, part of which is to use less power. Most of us don't know that or chose to ignore the freedom of choice due to the extra work exercising the option usually entails.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

...I guess im one of those green idiots that likes the idea of generating power from solar but obviously its cost prohibitive and i have to scale back my expectations considerably....

No you were ignorant and came here seeking answers. Those that refuse to learn or accept facts are idiots. Using batteries and believing that you are cleaner less polluting than the grid makes one a green idiot.

WWW

[jflorey2]

Seems like the consensus here is grid tie without batteries.

In most cases, yes. The exceptions are locations with no ready access to grid power and situations where loss of power is a serious problem (medical systems, servers etc) In such cases batteries are fairly essential.

I do have fear that laws will be passed everywhere that will make this less appealing. We are at the mercy of elected officials and the power companies. When solar hits "critical mass" I have a feeling the power companies will screw us like they just did in Indiana. They nearly just got away with it in Florida.

Well, partly true - but keep in mind elected officials are at YOUR mercy for their jobs. So you can have a little bit of say in what happens.

Also, power companies aren't evil; they're not trying to screw you over. There is a lot of work going into figuring out DER's can be integrated into the grid in a big way - and some utilities are already having problems doing this (like Hawaii.) They have an obligation to keep the grid stable, and sometimes that means reducing the rate at which new solar systems are being added.

[sensij]

I do have fear that laws will be passed everywhere that will make this less appealing. We are at the mercy of elected officials and the power companies. When solar hits "critical mass" I have a feeling the power companies will screw us like they just did in Indiana. They nearly just got away with it in Florida.

I haven't heard how anyone in Indiana got screwed. As far as I know, they passed a bill that extends the current form of net metering for 5 years (or until installations hit a 1.5% of peak load cap), and anyone installing in that time continues to receive net metering in that form for 20 years. No determination is made as to what the new tariff might look like in 2022, the original text that prohibited net metering completely was not in the final bill.

[NothingInCommon]

I haven't heard how anyone in Indiana got screwed. As far as I know, they passed a bill that extends the current form of net metering for 5 years (or until installations hit a 1.5% of peak load cap), and anyone installing in that time continues to receive net metering in that form for 20 years. No determination is made as to what the new tariff might look like in 2022, the original text that prohibited net metering completely was not in the final bill.

https://newswirepost.com/2017/04/06/...olar-industry/
"the bill would reduce the amount solar power users are compensated for routing unused electricity back on the grid."

http://www.heraldbulletin.com/news/state_news/solar-proponents-rally-against-bill/article_3ab0a4da-90cc-5978-9fac-eaa32050b86d.html
"But a bill in the legislature would eliminate net metering by 2027"

True I dont know the specifics... but i dont know any media outlet that has reported this as a pro solar move.

[NothingInCommon]

Guys help me out with this..

this was the guy on craigslist i was talking about -> https://miami.craigslist.org/brw/fod/6118840202.html

http://www.silfab.ca/

[NothingInCommon]

can you guys have a look ? I think these are the cheap panels the guy on craigslist is selling

http://www.silfab.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Silfab-SLG-P-300-315-Aug-26-2015-FINALlr.pdf

the 310w ones...