Excited about everything solar....disillusioned by cost and complexity

[NothingInCommon]

Hi everyone!

I am writing to you guys from sunny South Florida, Homestead to be specific. The same city that got destroyed by Hurricane Andrew in the 90's.

Like most people here I am very excited to get started on my solar project. I've been going back and forth on how I should do it. Some recommended to start small to get my hands dirty and get the experience, some recommended to just have professionals do it. After reading about the permits required and the cost associated with having a roof system tied into the grid and the cost to have it professionally installed I started to think twice about it.

I live on 3 acres so I do have some room to place panels on the ground but Im still not too sure.

Item	Desc	quantity	total	info
Battery	Duracell Ultra 8V Deep Cycle Golf Cart Battery (32 kwh)	24	$3,466.55	https://www.batteriesplus.com/productdetails/sligc8v
Panel	Poly C. 310 Watt - made in Canada (11.2 Kwh )	36	$4,320.00	seems too good to be true but i found a guy on craigslist that is selling them for $120 each. I may just buy one panel to test it to see if its legit.

For the batteries I thought I could get Duracell deep cycle golf cart batteries (8v) from what I've read I THINK i should be able to connect 6 together and 4 row (8v *165AH = 1320 watts (* 24 = 32Kwh of storage ) I read that you should only really discharge to about 50% with these types of batteries so actual = 16Kwh of storage. I chose 11.2 Kwh worth of panels in order to ensure they get topped off daily with plenty to spare and eventually so I have enough so I can charge an electric car during the day.

For the panels I was going to build 6 * 18Ft long mounts on wheels each would carry 6 panels

Usage = 30Kwh a day on average (will go a lot higher after I get an electric car)
Goals = Generate loads of electricity to offset MOST of my electric bill, ideally I would like the ability to cut off the grid (on occasion if needed) and run entirely off solar.

Haven't listed a charge controller, inverter, etc because im not sure what ill need yet. Hopefully I can find out here .

Ok guys so remember I am a TOTAL newbie so be gentle Feel free to correct me if you see a mistake..

Any and all advice welcome

Cheers!
J

[bcroe]

If you want to save money (or have a chance of breaking even), it would be much better to go grid tie and not
have any batteries. Batteries wear out; any energy drawn from them will cost in the neighborhood of 5 times
just buying from the power co. Supporting 30 KWH a day is recommended to use a much bigger battery bank,
you will need to do constant maintenance, including being ready to start your backup generator.

Mounts on wheels, won't they blow away? A 4' deep foundation is more common. Bruce Roe

[NothingInCommon]

If you want to save money (or have a chance of breaking even), it would be much better to go grid tie and not
have any batteries. Batteries wear out; any energy drawn from them will cost in the neighborhood of 5 times
just buying from the power co. Supporting 30 KWH a day is recommended to use a much bigger battery bank,
you will need to do constant maintenance, including being ready to start your backup generator.

Mounts on wheels, won't they blow away? A 4' deep foundation is more common. Bruce Roe

I suppose they could maybe, it would weigh a lot 360lbs on the panels alone. I could put brakes on them.

$432.00 of that batt price is deposit after gov incentive it comes out to 2426 (-432 deposit) = $1994 ive read with proper maint they can last 5 years - $33 a month for 1/2 of my daily electricity..

is it really so bad? is my math off? please explain - i dont want to make a mistake and regret it later

[J.P.M.]

Before you do anything more or else, download a copy of " Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", a free net download or an updated version for ~ $25 @ bookstores or Amazon.

Like many who come here, you have the enthusiasm borne of ignorance and probably high, self inflicted electric bills. Knowledge will help you avoid mistakes and disabuse you of the junk you hear/read about from people who would separate you from your money, starting with the idea of a battery system vs. grid tie, or actually, perhaps any system at all vs. the common sense of conservation and load reduction as a best first step befire anything else. Read the book. After that, come back here with questions to help fill in knowledge gaps, and be very deliberate about vendor selection after you get a lot more information. Solar isn't rocket science, but it does take a bit of learning to get it safe, correct and cost effective.

Add: welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

[NothingInCommon]

Before you do anything more or else, download a copy of " Solar Power Your Home for Dummies", a free net download or an updated version for ~ $25 @ bookstores or Amazon.

Like many who come here, you have the enthusiasm borne of ignorance and probably high, self inflicted electric bills. Knowledge will help you avoid mistakes and disabuse you of the junk you hear/read about from people who would separate you from your money, starting with the idea of a battery system vs. grid tie, or actually, perhaps any system at all vs. the common sense of conservation and load reduction as a best first step befire anything else. Read the book. After that, come back here with questions to help fill in knowledge gaps, and be very deliberate about vendor selection after you get a lot more information. Solar isn't rocket science, but it does take a bit of learning to get it safe, correct and cost effective.

Add: welcome to the neighborhood and the forum of few(er) illusions.

Thank you , Ill read the book.

[J.P.M.]

Thank you , Ill read the book.

You are most welcome. Be deliberate and keep an open mind. You'll do well.

[bcroe]

$432.00 of that batt price is deposit after gov incentive it comes out to 2426 (-432 deposit) = $1994 ive read
with proper maint they can last 5 years - $33 a month for 1/2 of my daily electricity..
is it really so bad? is my math off? please explain - i dont want to make a mistake and regret it later

Just take your battery choice, and look up lifetime cycles vs depth of discharge. Say, a battery has a 2KWH
capacity and you discharge it 50% each cycle, 1KWH. Multiply that by the the number of life cycles at that
discharge, and you have the battery lifetime energy storage capability. Divide the battery cost by that, and
you will have the $/KWH from that battery. Even with the most economical battery, you will find the price is
MUCH greater than the PoCo is selling KWH for. And that doesn't include panels and other hardware.

Then do more reading, as J.P.M. suggests. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

Hello NothingInCommon and welcome to Solar Panel Talk

Both Bruce and JPM have given you some good information. Unfortunately going with an off grid solar / battery system in most places (including S Florida) will not save you any money. The cost of grid power is cheap here ( I live in the Tampa area) so it is hard to justify the expense of generating your own power.

Even a grid tie system would take me about 8 years to pay for itself based on a moderate installation cost of $2.50/watt and my usage of ~ 1200kWh a month average.

Sure you can have fun experimenting with solar and build yourself a small system. I built one that is about 400 watt of panels and can delivery about 600Wh a day. It cost me $2500 and while fun to build it really isn't cost effective.

The choice is yours but try to understand that while solar is cool it is not cheap.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

...For the batteries I thought I could get Duracell deep cycle golf cart batteries (8v) from what I've read I THINK i should be able to connect 6 together and 4 row (8v *165AH = 1320 watts (* 24 = 32Kwh of storage ) I read that you should only really discharge to about 50% with these types of batteries so actual = 16Kwh of storage. I chose 11.2 Kwh worth of panels in order to ensure they get topped off daily with plenty to spare and eventually so I have enough so I can charge an electric car during the day.

...

Usage = 30Kwh a day on average (will go a lot higher after I get an electric car)...

You need a lot bigger battery bank to support that kind of load. 30Kwh daily will require about a 150Kwh battery bank if you want a chance of it lasting 5 years. You don't plan on using more than 20% daily and that give you 2.5 days atonomy before you reach the 50% SOC. So your battery bank charge just went up by a factor of 5.

So if you get them to last 5 years that's going to cost you:

$17,300 / (30KWH * 365 * 5) = $0.316 per Kwh just for the batteries.

Good luck with your system saving you money.

WWW

[emartin00]

I would start with a grid tied system. It is quite a bit less complicated, and a lot cheaper.
The panels on wheels is a BAD idea. The first time you get storm force winds (you are in FL...) they are going to go flying across the yard. Plus, no electrical inspector would allow it.
If you go grid tie first, you can always save up for the batteries, then swap out the inverter with a hybrid inverter. Then you will have the grid tie functionality, with back up capability.

[Logan5]

Go grid tie, and keep an eye on battery technology. FPL@11 cents per KWH will be many years/decades before any battery can compete. Florida has one of the lowest rates in the country.

[citabria]

NothingInCommon: Welcome to these forums.

I live 100% off-grid with a solar powered system, battery bank, industrial generator, etc. Not that I want to, but out of necessity. Surrounded by National Forest, grid power about 3/4 to 1 mile away. Good luck getting permission from the Forest Service to run a power line.

Okays, my question is: Why do you want a solar powered system?

If you want solar for backup electrical power in a post storm situation, I suggest you look at a liquid cooled industrial generator fueled by propane placed in a hurricane proofed out building. You will never realize an ROI on a solar system. You will enjoy a new full time hobby of maintaining batteries. Hail and high winds will probably shred your panel arrays. Wind loadings are a huge concern for your panel arrays, you are going to need a method to tie them to the ground. Something more than screw anchors.

I do not mean to be a doggy downer, but If I had my preference, I would not have a solar powered system.

[J.P.M.]

NothingInCommon: Welcome to these forums.

I live 100% off-grid with a solar powered system, battery bank, industrial generator, etc. Not that I want to, but out of necessity. Surrounded by National Forest, grid power about 3/4 to 1 mile away. Good luck getting permission from the Forest Service to run a power line.

Okays, my question is: Why do you want a solar powered system?

If you want solar for backup electrical power in a post storm situation, I suggest you look at a liquid cooled industrial generator fueled by propane placed in a hurricane proofed out building. You will never realize an ROI on a solar system. You will enjoy a new full time hobby of maintaining batteries. Hail and high winds will probably shred your panel arrays. Wind loadings are a huge concern for your panel arrays, you are going to need a method to tie them to the ground. Something more than screw anchors.

I do not mean to be a doggy downer, but If I had my preference, I would not have a solar powered system.

Not a knock, but something seems missing to me. That is, and NOMB or concern, but unless someone or something is forcing you to live surrounded by a national forest a long way from power, why is it a necessity that you live where you do except by choice ?

[NothingInCommon]

You need a lot bigger battery bank to support that kind of load. 30Kwh daily will require about a 150Kwh battery bank if you want a chance of it lasting 5 years. You don't plan on using more than 20% daily and that give you 2.5 days atonomy before you reach the 50% SOC. So your battery bank charge just went up by a factor of 5.

So if you get them to last 5 years that's going to cost you:

$17,300 / (30KWH * 365 * 5) = $0.316 per Kwh just for the batteries.

Good luck with your system saving you money.

WWW

I had no idea that in order to get a longer life span out of batteries youd need more of them, but it makes sense if you distribute the discharge between more batteries. Seems like no one is doing this though, all the projects you see on youtube you never hear about needing 5x more. Thats way too much $$ :

What if you just wanted to charge an electric car at night?
What if you chose another battery tech?

Does this 5x principle still apply?

[citabria]

Sorry, don't mean to hijack the OP, but this forum does not support private messaging: In answer to J.P.M.: I originally moved to the 80 acre homestead out of necessity while handling my Dad's Probate due to financial stresses, and the probate drug out to about 3.5 years. I do not own the property, but the elderly absentee owner needed a caretaker and the opportunity came up, and it was really a good life change for me. I don't mind living there. About 18 mile commute one way to work, though I have destroyed truck 4 tires to the limestone cap rock. I have excellent game camera photo's of bear, bobcats, a mountain lion, etc. I lived in remote villages in Alaska, so this place was a good fit.

I agree that solar has its place: An off-grid system in a favorable climate zone is certainly warranted, or where fuel is limited or costly. But, I have to side with those that suggest money would be better spent on (other things than solar) if grid-power is already available. And solar has to be done correctly if it is to provide reliable power in sufficient quantity. The solar system here originally had 2,200 pounds of VRLA GNB Absolyte batteries costing over $19,000! Those batteries lasted about 14 yrs before failure. As a renter/caretaker I am not going to spend that kind of money to stay on the homestead. I did replace those with 1,500 pounds of Trojan L16's for about $5,000 installed..