Solar newbie from Ohio

[foo1bar]

OP...if you are selling your excess at wholesale and buying it back at night at retail, you have a "net billing" system not a "net meter" system.


Find out for sure. If you are on a net billing system then you need to be a low cost producer. Economies of scale work in these types of arrangements. Do your homework and make a plan. Find out from your POCO how large a system you can build. If you are selling wholesale you need to know your profit margin......just like any business.

There may be limits on both how large of a system you can build AND how many kwh you can sell to the POCO.
And knowing the "profit margin" on something which has such a big front-loaded cost means that you need to know
A> Are they going to be contractually obligated to continue with it for 10 or 20 years?
B> What is *your* time-value for the money you're putting in? (if you're borrowing money to do it, include the interest you'll pay along with the maint. etc.; and if you're not borrowing you should still include something for the opportunity cost of what you could otherwise do with that cash)

That's assuming net-billing (which is what I read superduty as having - but it's quite possible he has net metering on a monthly basis. Or something else)
Like Dan said - Find out for sure

[superduty_5.9]

Thanks for all the replys guys! I can now go back to my power company and ask more questions. The guy did say they only have 12 customers producing solar and it's not the best deal since they are not required to have a certain % solar yet. Thanks again!

[cracovian]

That $10 fee means that they'll end up getting 250 kWh from you for free each month (cost avoidance is probably 4 cents/kWh or so.)

This means you'll need 8 South-facing panels working for your POCO just to cover that fee

Georgia Power only pays me 3.5 cents but I use a lot of energy in real time and I oversized my solar too. I started with only 8 microinverters and 280W panels but then added 8 easily to that original string. With spare wiring in place from the original installation I added 10 more after that, then 8, and then 9, each time much cheaper over the span of two years, so I'm up to my max of 43 panels now. They charge me $2.86/month which I thought was an awful deal but it looks like they found their match

[bcroe]

I live in a county that does not require any building permits. Only permits in my county would be for new septic system. I want to do things the right way but sometimes doing it that way only helps the governent, companies ect any usually not me. I like a win win situation! Not sure if roof or ground mount would be best. Probably whichever is the cheapest. Thanks for the advice!

While many say a ground mount costs more, it did not for me. I think its a lot easier for a DIY project, and the only
way to go for adjustable tilt. In OH (I'm in NW IL) tilting your panels near vertical for the snow months will greatly
reduce snow removal efforts and may increase production on sunny days. Forget batteries. Bruce Roe

[SunEagle]

While many say a ground mount costs more, it did not for me. I think its a lot easier for a DIY project, and the only
way to go for adjustable tilt. In OH (I'm in NW IL) tilting your panels near vertical for the snow months will greatly
reduce snow removal efforts and may increase production on sunny days. Forget batteries. Bruce Roe

I agree that a ground mounted system could cost less and is more DIY friendly if you have the space, time and knowledge needed to build one. (it also helps to keep people from falling from high places like the roof).

Since I now have some real estate to live on, this is the direction I plan to go when I install my pv system. (I mean ground mount but maybe not DIY due to the current solar installation certifications required in my area)

[J.P.M.]

While many say a ground mount costs more, it did not for me. I think its a lot easier for a DIY project, and the only
way to go for adjustable tilt. In OH (I'm in NW IL) tilting your panels near vertical for the snow months will greatly
reduce snow removal efforts and may increase production on sunny days. Forget batteries. Bruce Roe

Bruce: With all possible respect, and not meant in a critical way at all, you seem to be a bit on one of the tails of a normal distribution of what most folks are capable and/or inclined to do with respect to energy use. For starters, most are not DIYers. Your stuff cost less at least partly because it's probably got a lot of sweat equity in it. I suspect too (but have no firm idea) that if you had to have someone else build what you've got - assuming you could find someone willing to attempt it - it would be pretty expensive.

[jflorey2]

Replied to an old post - oops.

[bcroe]

Bruce: With all possible respect, and not meant in a critical way at all, you seem to be a bit on one of the tails of a normal distribution of what most folks are capable and/or inclined to do with respect to energy use. For starters, most are not DIYers. Your stuff cost less at least partly because it's probably got a lot of sweat equity in it. I suspect too (but have no firm idea) that if you had to have someone else build what you've got - assuming you could find someone willing to attempt it - it would be pretty expensive.

My feeling is that a ground mount lends itself more to DIY, a few of them have been discussed.

Someone did build the south facing array for me, which got it done fast and took care of a lot of paperwork. I calculated
it was around $3.10 a watt, which may only prove that ground mount cost here in the Wild West is comparable to a roof
mount in states by an ocean. It used NOT standard rack, but drilled aluminum stock which I completely approve of,
probably more robust, and easier to modify. The DIY part started when half a thousand holes needed redrilling, but that
didn't affect the equation. Also the inverters went into an existing out building, using an existing 4 gauge feed, not sure
how much impact that had.

The big DIY went in 3 months later, facing E and W. Completely put up by 1 guy in 1 month, using panels that were
already here, and no additional inverter plant. In a day, for a grand, a backhoe operator and I dug the holes and
buried my pre constructed foundation. The cost of all this was so low, I don't even refer to it in comparisons. Bruce Roe

[Sunking]

You do not have Net Metering. You pay retail and get wholesale like it should be. What that means is if you go solar, you just volunteered for a rate hike. You cannot break even.

[foo1bar]

You do not have Net Metering.

You might want to be more specific - I can't tell if you mean Bruce or someone else - I believe Bruce does have net metering.

What that means is if you go solar, you just volunteered for a rate hike. You cannot break even.

????

My cost per kwh is less than my POCO's wholesale price. (Even with assumption that I replace the inverter at about year 10 and other small maintenance costs)
And my system isn't the cheapest.

Even if someone can only get down to somewhere between wholesale and retail on their installation it can still make sense for them.
Basically they'll have a win on the kwh that they use themselves and a loss on the kwh they export and use later.
So when power is being used vs. generated becomes a big factor in sizing the system.

[DanS26]

It seems to me that there are three types of people who install grid tied solar:

1. I want to save money on my energy purchases

2. I want to save the world from environmental catastrophe

3. I hate my POCO..............and if batteries didn't cost so much I'd go off grid.

I keep saying this........you have to be a low cost producer if you are a #1 above. If you are a #2 then screw the financial analysis.....you'll pay anything to dissuade your green angst. If you're #3 you're just pissed to pay that $300 monthly power bill..

[J.P.M.]

It seems to me that there are three types of people who install grid tied solar:

1. I want to save money on my energy purchases

2. I want to save the world from environmental catastrophe

3. I hate my POCO..............and if batteries didn't cost so much I'd go off grid.

I keep saying this........you have to be a low cost producer if you are a #1 above. If you are a #2 then screw the financial analysis.....you'll pay anything to dissuade your green angst. If you're #3 you're just pissed to pay that $300 monthly power bill..

I'd add a fourth : lemming behavior to keep up with the neighbors or succumb to the brainwashing.

In my experience, a lot, maybe even most folks start out claiming all 3 reasons, but in reality it's mostly to entirely about #'s 1 and 3, with #4 an often unseen and unnoticed influence.

# 2 is the bastard child that gets forgotten in the headlong near panic rush from high electric bills.

[bcroe]

It seems to me that there are three types of people who install grid tied solar:

1. I want to save money on my energy purchases

2. I want to save the world from environmental catastrophe

3. I hate my POCO..............and if batteries didn't cost so much I'd go off grid.

I keep saying this........you have to be a low cost producer if you are a #1 above. If you are a #2 then screw the financial analysis.....you'll pay anything to dissuade your green angst. If you're #3 you're just pissed to pay that $300 monthly power bill..

There are more varied reasons, a couple might be
"to go beyond and 'win' the battle of conservation (no more feeling guilty for any energy consumption);
to run a science experiment of just what the limits of practicality might be."

Not done yet here. After decades of reducing energy purchases, I'll try to be efficient enough to keep
the car shop temp at least 40 F year around. Then I can easily blast it to 65 with propane when doing
a car project, using no propane the rest of the time. Bruce Roe

[jflorey2]

I keep saying this........you have to be a low cost producer if you are a #1 above. If you are a #2 then screw the financial analysis.....you'll pay anything to dissuade your green angst.

Given the success of "eco marketing" I disagree. There are reams of evidence that demonstrate that people will pay SOME additional amount (often not much) for more "eco friendly" products, whether they are really lower impact or not.

Why do we have such evidence? Because marketing companies spend millions on studies that will tell manufacturers how to sell their products. So there are people who care very much about knowing how much more they will pay for a "green!" roll of toilet paper, or a "natural!" can of beans.

[DanS26]

Given the success of "eco marketing" I disagree. There are reams of evidence that demonstrate that people will pay SOME additional amount (often not much) for more "eco friendly" products, whether they are really lower impact or not.

Why do we have such evidence? Because marketing companies spend millions on studies that will tell manufacturers how to sell their products. So there are people who care very much about knowing how much more they will pay for a "green!" roll of toilet paper, or a "natural!" can of beans.

I agree with you on the micro level (ie toilet paper and beans)......but as the cost increases that reasoning is increasing ignored. Thus a $20k, $30k or even $40k solar PV investment with no hope of ever seeing a positive return is not seen as a economic investment....but as a donation to "saving the world". Those who have the ability to "donate" do so. It makes you feel good.