Solar newbie from Ohio

[jflorey2]

We eventually want to be off grid but the costs of batteries is a factor at first. We will try and learn from a grid tie system and then hopefully eventually graduate to a big enough off grid system. Anybody think this is a good idea? Thanks

Nope. Bad idea. Batteries are expensive, require care and feeding and have to be replaced regularly. If you want your co-op to go off grid, then invest in something like a gas turbine and use the waste heat for heating buildings near the plant.

[dennis461]

WELCOME to the site.....

OP, I saw some red flags on your plans, and others already posted warnings for you. e.g install it without notifying electric company, already have a diesel generator without a permit...

As for battery storage(off-grid)..if the grid is available to 'store' energy during the day, then you pull it back at might, I do not see any need for a battery bank.
Right?

Your energy usage is higher than mine was before solar, so you are going to need more installation than $2000 can get you.
are you talking roof mount or ground?

[foo1bar]

We eventually want to be off grid ...

Once you look at the economics you'll probably change your mind about being off-grid.

grid-tie-with-net-metering is probably going to be about $.10/kwh (maybe less maybe more depending on size of system, rebates, etc)
off-grid is probably going to be about $.50 to $1.00/kwh (initial cost and cost for 3 more sets of batteries over 20 years divided by kwh over those 20 years.)
just using the grid is probably $.15/kwh or something (averaging over 20 years)

Maybe those numbers are cut in half where you live - maybe they're double. But basically nowhere in the US is it that if you already have grid power going off-grid would be cheaper.

[superduty_5.9]

WELCOME to the site.....

OP, I saw some red flags on your plans, and others already posted warnings for you. e.g install it without notifying electric company, already have a diesel generator without a permit...

As for battery storage(off-grid)..if the grid is available to 'store' energy during the day, then you pull it back at might, I do not see any need for a battery bank.
Right?

Your energy usage is higher than mine was before solar, so you are going to need more installation than $2000 can get you.
are you talking roof mount or ground?

I live in a county that does not require any building permits. Only permits in my county would be for new septic system. I want to do things the right way but sometimes doing it that way only helps the governent, companies ect any usually not me. I like a win win situation! Not sure if roof or ground mount would be best. Probably whichever is the cheapest. Thanks for the advice!

[SunEagle]

I live in a county that does not require any building permits. Only permits in my county would be for new septic system. I want to do things the right way but sometimes doing it that way only helps the governent, companies ect any usually not me. I like a win win situation! Not sure if roof or ground mount would be best. Probably whichever is the cheapest. Thanks for the advice!

A ground mount is usually more expensive then a roof mount if the building can handle the weight and uplift from the wind.

[superduty_5.9]

My house roof is facing south and can handle the weight but in probaby 4-5 years I am going over my roof with metal roofing panels. I will probably fab some (4 season) adjustible ground mounts. Makes it easier to clean off the snow too!

[superduty_5.9]

Once you look at the economics you'll probably change your mind about being off-grid.

grid-tie-with-net-metering is probably going to be about $.10/kwh (maybe less maybe more depending on size of system, rebates, etc)
off-grid is probably going to be about $.50 to $1.00/kwh (initial cost and cost for 3 more sets of batteries over 20 years divided by kwh over those 20 years.)
just using the grid is probably $.15/kwh or something (averaging over 20 years)

Maybe those numbers are cut in half where you live - maybe they're double. But basically nowhere in the US is it that if you already have grid power going off-grid would be cheaper.

As solar gets cheaper electric companies will find a way to not pay you for your kw's. In Columbus,OH (1hour south east from me) AEP is proposing a $100 monthly fee for solar customers who are grid tied. Others make it tough to not say F U with all the BS rules and regs. Soon net-metering will be gone in most places. I understand batteries are expensive but can be planned for. I have a lot of Amish neighbors and envy their off grid life! lol

[J.P.M.]

As solar gets cheaper electric companies will find a way to not pay you for your kw's. In Columbus,OH (1hour south east from me) AEP is proposing a $100 monthly fee for solar customers who are grid tied. Others make it tough to not say F U with all the BS rules and regs. Soon net-metering will be gone in most places. I understand batteries are expensive but can be planned for. I have a lot of Amish neighbors and envy their off grid life! lol

I've got lots of respect for those folks. I suspect you may envy their lower energy bills that result from their self reliance more than what may be the price of that self reliance.

[Mike90250]

... I understand batteries are expensive but can be planned for......

Then you should first price out what your batteries will cost for your needs
1200 monthly KWh = comes to about 40Kwh daily WOW !!

Say you can super conserve and cut that in half to 20kwh daily
The very smallest battery bank you can use, is going to be 3 days worth of power - 60Kwh. Daily, you consume about a third which gives you barely acceptable battery lifetime, and after 1 cloudy day you HAVE to run the generator several hours daily, till you get a day of full sun,

A 60,000wh battery bank would consist of a 48V battery at 1,250 amp hours.
That's the equivalent of 50 automotive starter batteries rated 100ah ea. (did I math that out right? 100ah x 12V = 1200wh x 50 yep)
So, now to find a shed to park that mountain of batteries in . And you get to replace them every 5-9 years.

To recharge them, you need at least 100a @ 56V from your solar array. That's about 6,000 w of solar panels. (the label lies, just like the mileage sticker on your car)

Assuming you can cut your usage in half from what it currently is !

And I have the same diesel generator the Amish use, you would need 5 of them for your backup,

[foo1bar]

48V @ 1300Ah would be 24 of 2CRP1880. (they're 1300Ah, but that's pretty close. And the 1000Ah were the same price on the website I looked at)
Weight: 4152 pounds (2 tons)
Price: $625*24 = $15k

The $15k will be in addition to the $12k-$18k for the solar panels and inverter/charge controller.
AND you get to spend that $15k four times over 20 years (every 5 years)

As solar gets cheaper electric companies will find a way to not pay you for your kw's.

Most of the people with net metering will be grandfathered - or at least have 10 or 20 years to recoup their investment.
I'm pretty well set with my GTI setup.
Other people that install now won't get the rebates I did.
But mine will be paid off from savings in 3-4 years.
And I think I'll have at least 10 years of net metering. Probably 20 or more.

[superduty_5.9]

I just got a call back from my electric company. They do offer net-metering. They charge a flat fee of $10 a month to net-meter and I pay retail to buy my power from them and they only give me wholesale for the power that I produce. The guy says it varies from month to month and is dependant on the company that does the power production for them which is Buckeye Power. They also want to inspect my system but just to make sure that the grid-tie inverter has sensing to interupt power if there is an outage.

What are your thoughts on this deal?

[jflorey2]

I just got a call back from my electric company. They do offer net-metering. They charge a flat fee of $10 a month to net-meter and I pay retail to buy my power from them and they only give me wholesale for the power that I produce. The guy says it varies from month to month and is dependant on the company that does the power production for them which is Buckeye Power. They also want to inspect my system but just to make sure that the grid-tie inverter has sensing to interupt power if there is an outage.

What are your thoughts on this deal?

Pretty standard net metering deal. The important part is the NET metering part of it - that means if you generate half of what you use, your bill gets cut in half. If you generate more than what you use you get a tiny amount back. Which means that you are likely going to want to size your system to at least get yourself into the lowest tier power pricing (if your company prices by tiers) and not go beyond what you will reasonably use, since "selling back" to the POCO will not be economically sensible.

[SunEagle]

I agree with jflorey2. Since you won't get much for each kWh you sell to your POCO it would be wise not to over size your system which will reduce your cost and your payback time.

[foo1bar]

Pretty standard net metering deal.

What he is describing isn't what I would call net metering, much less "pretty standard".

At least I didn't see him say that they do the purchase/sale on a net basis.
My expectation for it to be called "net metering" is that they count production (in kwh or in retail $) against use before calculating who owes what.
Around here that calculation is on a year-long basis (ex. I generate kwh in July I can use them in Jan. and they just cancel out)
If his POCO is not doing net usage over a year (or even a month), then he could pay for power all night, generate and sell back during the day and even though he's making more kwh than he uses, he'll still owe money.

I would call them back and make sure that I understood how the "net" part worked.
Is it over a month or year?
If not, then I wouldn't call it net metering - I'd call it being able to sell to the POCO at wholesale rates.
And at that point you need to figure out size...
1> small - enough to remove most daytime usage, but won't overproduce much. (probably best if production cost will be well above wholesale rates)
2> big - enough to get rid of vast majority of your bill. (Can be best if production cost will be below wholesale rates - ex you are producing at around ~$.04/kwh and selling to them at ~$.08/kwh
3> medium - remove all the daytime use, overproduce some and that goes against nighttime usage. (Could be best - depends on wholesale/retail pricing, how much it'll cost for you to build the system, and what you think is the time-value-of-money for the money you use to build the system)

[DanS26]

OP...if you are selling your excess at wholesale and buying it back at night at retail, you have a "net billing" system not a "net meter" system.


Find out for sure. If you are on a net billing system then you need to be a low cost producer. Economies of scale work in these types of arrangements. Do your homework and make a plan. Find out from your POCO how large a system you can build. If you are selling wholesale you need to know your profit margin......just like any business.