Damn Texans...

[Sunking]

It is just a marketing designation to charge a higher price. Read the description the wire insulation is multi-use Type RHH, RHW-2, USE-2.

RHW-2:
Moisture and heat-resistant thermoset (rubber)
• 90°C, wet and dry insulation rating • May also be
marked USE-2 and/or RHH.

What you are looking for is any cable type USE-2 & RHW-2. That is all you need to know.

R = Rubber compound
H = High Temp 70 C wet or dry
HH:=Higher temperature (usually 90°C when dry or damp)
U = Underground
SE = Service entrance
W = Moisture resistant @ 60
-2 = High temperature and moisture resistance (90°C wet or dry)

[cnttxmdc]

Great. Thanks for that. I'm sure I'll have more questions as I get closer to putting it all together. I'm still getting everything together at this point. I'm not the type of guy to start something without having everything ready and prepared.

Thanks guys

[russ]

Comments in bold in the text

hmm I use PV wire everyday PV Photovoltaic cable 600v rated. So you enjoy paying the premium?
Appropriate for use on PV systems and USE-2 and RHW-2 600 volt applications.- from PV wire spec sheet

So it exists for sure, and is used on PV systems everyday.

I would stay away from trackers. We have found the maintenance on actuators alone was not worth it. Not when panel prices have dropped so low. Agreed as a couple of more panels make up the difference and have no moving parts.

Micro inverters should be used if you will have any shading on the array, or remove the problem trees.
Here where it snows quite a lot we always recommend a mount with seasonal adjustment, being able to tilt the panels at a steeper angle means the snow will slide off fast. In TX I wouldn't worry about that to much.

There are plenty of nice ground mount racks available. I am sure you will find a good match for your site. Its always a good idea to get a soil evaluation when dealing with large racks but not always necessary.

Don't be scared to call a solar pro just to as questions. We don't mind chatting even if you get the stuff somewhere else. You will avoid a lot of confusion this site can bring up.By all means - go to a dealer where you don't know how much BS he is throwing at you. Bad advice Indiana

[Sunking]

Do I like paying a premium? Well we buy it in bulk so while we pay more for P.v. cable than say USE-2 it's not to bad. More importantly I like passing inspection.

Complete hogwash. USE-2 is accepted by any AHJ. PV listed cable is not recognized as of yet by NEC. All you are doing is blowing smoke and either dipping into your profits and charging customers more for no reason.

For each listing on a a multi-purpose cable the manufacture has on their cable, cost then money for each listing. USE-2 and RHW-2 is at the top of the hierarchy and PV listing sets below. You are are dang fool for spending more than you have to. Either you are your customers are paying for it. My bet it is passed onto your customers giving your competition the edge over you.

Judging by your username tells me you are in Indiana with little or no competition or much business to start with. Indiana is a very poor place for solar.

[inetdog]

Everything you would ever want to know about wire and cable markings. Search for PV and the only hit is PVC which is poly vinyl chloride.

But if you look at page 15, Table 3 for Special Purpose wire and cable types, you will find "Photovoltaic Wire" as specified in Article 690. As a shorthand, it is also referred to as PV wire, although that is not the legal marking. You are correct in that the exact same wire may also be dual rated as the other Table 1 wire types that you mention.
Notice that the CCN, indicating the standard by which this wire is evaluated, is ZKLA, which is NOT the same standard as applies to the other ratings you list.

As for cable types permitted from the Panels to CC can be found here written by a friend of mine John Wiles aka 690 author.

As for John's excellent article, the date on the magazine is 1998, well before the PV wire type was added by UL and NEC (2008), so I do not count that as authoritative in this case.

Here is a more recent publication by John, which contains the following:

"Conductor type? —If exposed: USE-2, UF (usually inadequate at 60°C), or SE, 90°C,wet-rated and sunlight-resistant. [690.31(B)] {2008 NEC restricts exposed single-conductor wiring to USE-2 and listed PV/Photovoltaic Wire/Cable} — If in conduit: RHW-2, THWN-2, or XHHW-2 90°C, wet-rated conductors are required. [310.15]"

Since you are usually much more diligent in your citations, I can only conclude that you are doing this deliberately to stir up some fun.

[Sunking]

Above is why I am not going to argue with you Sunking, I am not arguing with someone about something they believe doesn't exist.

Take it over to Mike Holt NEC Code Forum and let's see how long you last with 25,000 professional electricians/engineers online and me as a moderator.

[inetdog]

Take it over to Mike Holt NEC Code Forum and let's see how long you last with 25,000 professional electricians/engineers and me as a moderator.

I, on the other hand, am quite willing to continue to discuss it here, without any rancor, hostility or ill will.

[Sunking]

I, on the other hand, am quite willing to continue to discuss it here, without any rancor, hostility or ill will.

My point is take it to a NEC Code Forum where there are 25,000 member who live and die by the code everyday, and write the codes like myself and John Wiles who wrote Article 690. Fact is PV rated cable in the NEC does not exist, nor does it exist in UL cable insulation documents which I have already proven. Again look at the documents. You will not find PV listed cable anywhere.

UL Cable Listing Document
NEC 690 Cable Types written by John Wiles himself who wrote 690. Note Document title: Clarifying Confusing Cables Catchy title huh? FWIW both John and I are moderators on Mike Holt Code Forum.

IndianaOHMS cannot argue with me because he has no facts to argue with.


Cables go by hierarchy. USE-2 and RHW-2 are at the top of the building wire entrance cables. USE-2 can come with many sub listings, but manufactures have to pay for each additional listing. With that said anywhere where RHW-2 can be used, you can use USE-2 because it is a grade above RHW-2 and because USE-2 can be in a race way or Underground Service Entrance direct burial. RHW=2 cannot be used for direct burial. PV means nothing.

Can you buy cable that has a PV marking? Yes you can but no inspector will give it a glance. The AHJ wants to see either USE-2 and/or RHW-2. The PV marking is a waste of ink and money at this point in time until the NEC llist it as acceptable and defines the permitted uses.

That's all there is to it.

[inetdog]

My point is take it to a NEC Code Forum where there are 25,000 member who live and die by the code everyday, and write the codes like myself and John Wiles who wrote Article 690. Fact is PV rated cable in the NEC does not exist, nor does it exist in UL cable insulation documents which I have already proven.

UL Cable Listing Document
NEC 690 Cable Types written by John Wiles himself who wrote 690

Indiana cannot argue with me because he has no facts to argue with.


Cables go by hierarchy. USE-2 and RHW-2 are at the top of the building wire entrance cables. USE-2 can come with many sub listings, but manufactures have to pay for each additional listing. With that said anywhere where RHW-2 can be used, you can use USE-2 because it is a grade above RHW-2 and because USE-2 can be in a race way or Underground Service Entrance direct burial. RHW=2 cannot be used for direct burial. PV means nothing.

Can you buy cable that has a PV marking? Yes you can but no inspector will give it a glance. The AHJ wants to see either USE-2 and/or RHW-2. The PV marking is a waste of ink and money at this point in time until the NEC llist it as acceptable and defines the permitted uses.

That's all there is to it.

OK, and I am content to leave it at that. If you wish to ignore my specific objections to the two sources you cited and also ignore the reference to UL Listed PV wire by John Wiles himself (Post #23), I do not see any point in trying to convince you.

(Unlike IndianaOHMS, I feel that I do have facts to argue with.)

1. It is possible, however, under the current UL and NEC regulations to have wire which is rated and marked ONLY as PV wire which is not dual rated as any of the other types and can therefore be used only for PV (Article 690) applications. However it would not make economic sense for the manufacturer not to add any other ratings for which the wire is qualified. The dual rating allows it to be used for "normal" wiring too. (It would be too expensive for ordinary use, but for carrying PV circuits into areas which are not directly permitted by the PV rating makes sense.)
2. One significant distinction, IMHO, for commercial rather than residential systems, is that PV wire is available with a 1000V rating because the standard to which it is evaluated provides for that. USE-2 and RHW-2 are NOT available in 1000V ratings because the applicable standards only cover wire rated 600V or less.
3. Also FWIW, the insulation on PV wire is thicker, with better mechanical protection. Whether that is worth the extra cost is an individual decision. USE-2 and RHW-2 are not required to have the thicker insulation, but the thicker insulation does not prevent the PV wire from also having the USE-2 or RHW-2 ratings.
4. A PV rating alone does not allow use in certain wet conditions like conduit outside the building, but some PV wire also qualifies for unexposed wet use by having the RWH-2 rating.
5. If an inspector (or AHJ) does not allow appropriate use of wire which is only marked "Photovoltaic Wire", I would expect to be successful in appealing that up the line, although it might not be economical to do so. (Provided, of course, that the AHJ is on 2008 or 2011 NEC.)

PS: When you say that PV wire is not recognized by the NEC, what code cycle are you looking at? PV wire is mentioned in Article 690 in both 2008 and 2011 NEC and should remain there in the 2014 revision. It cannot be used for other purposes than Article 690 applications unless dual rated.

PPS: According to Mike Holt, Texas currently uses 2011 NEC.

[Sunking]

OK, and I am content to leave it at that. If you wish to ignore my specific objections to the two sources you cited and also ignore the reference to UL Listed PV wire by John Wiles himself (Post #23), I do not see any point in trying to convince you.

I am not ignoring you, I di dnot notice your reply post 23. Let me look.

[Sunking]

2. One significant distinction, IMHO, for commercial rather than residential systems, is that PV wire is available with a 1000V rating because the standard to which it is evaluated provides for that. USE-2 and RHW-2 are NOT available in 1000V ratings because the applicable standards only cover wire rated 600V or less.

You would be right and is the Crux of the problem which has not been defined. When you see cable Type USE-2, RHW-2 or any Building Wire and Cable types the voltage is 600 volts unless otherwise identified ie MV for medium voltage. PV is not a defined voltage or Building Wire. Some cable being marketed as PV carries a voltage rating of 2000 volts , while others are 600 volts.

For Example Belden's product line that is UL 4703 compliant is only 600 volt USE-2 and RHW-2
Here is Southwires 2 Kv version.

Look for 2014 NEC to clarify which is what I am stirring up.

[inetdog]

You would be right and is the Crux of the problem which has not been defined. When you see cable Type USE-2, RHW-2 or any Building Wire and Cable types the voltage is 600 volts unless otherwise identified ie MV for medium voltage. PV is not a defined voltage or Building Wire. Some cable being marketed as PV carries a voltage rating of 2000 volts , while others are 600 volts.

Yes, that does make things more interesting.

The Photovoltaic Wire spec does not require an insulation rating higher than 600 Volts (the minimum allowed), but because it is a Special Purpose wire rather than general purpose Building Wire the PV standard allows for the manufacturer to test PV wire to higher voltages and publish that rating in connection with that Special Purpose use only.
I have not seen any 2000V ratings myself, and AFAIK there are not currently any permitted solar array installations over 1000 volts, at least not in the US (or Texas). But if a manufacturer can demonstrate that rating some customers might decide that more is better even for 1000V uses. So that would either be marketing hype or forward looking thinking.

[Sunking]

I have not seen any 2000V ratings myself, and AFAIK there are not currently any permitted solar array installations over 1000 volts, at least not in the US (or Texas).

Hold the bus there my friend. Commercial and Industrial installations go well above 1000 volts. No way are you going to make say a 10 Mw array at 600 volts.

But here is to your point. Residential installations are limited to 600 volt max.

[Sunking]

Well I don't see you listed as a mod?

What am I missing?

My username

[Sunking]

I have already caught you in a lie, I will just assume this is another.

You have not caught me at anything. You can find PV cable, but it is nothing more than USE-2 at a premium price.