AC waterpump with solar panels

[bcroe]

But I agree the advancement in high voltage semiconductors is changing the face of 3-phase AC Induction motors. But as for the motors themselves nothing new, they are just getting larger. The only real advancement I know of is the USN is testing a new High Temperature Superconductor Ship motor rated at 49,000 hp running at 120 RPM @ 2.9 million Newton Meters of torque. That is one hell of a titty twister. . What is unique about it is 1/3 the size and weight of conventional 4 pole monster motors.

As a cost comparative though in my experience with racing golf carts is for about $1000 I can equip you with a 20 hp DC motor and 500 amp PWM speed controller. Want AC with that cart is going to cost you $3000 for a 16 hp 550 amp VFD Inverter. My current cart uses a HPEV 35 running at 144 volts with a 500 amp controller. It is a 35 hp continuous power motor. But do not let that fool you as it produces a Flat torque curve from 0 rpm to 6000 RPM of 90 Ft/lbs of torque and Flat 102 hp from 6000 RPM to 11,000 RPM. No transmission needed and I have it speed limited to 7000 RPM or 75 mph. In the 8th mile wil beat even a Telsa Roadster or gas car you want to race with. It wil scare the chit out of you. With my fat but in it only weighs 960 pounds.

Super conduction is another thing changing the rules. Maybe we will have DC transmission at near
100% efficiency and no distance limit. I'd hate to see a military motor quit because they ran out of
liquid hydrogen. Fermi Lab (walking distance from my last loc) managed to be the worlds most
powerful accelerator for decades using super conducting magnets. They had the worlds largest
liquid hydrogen plant.

There is no physical reason a quick car shouldn't be electric, with the right components. I won't be
racing any golf cars myself. Bruce Roe

[Sunking]

The same evolution of high powered semiconductors that made these great GTIs practical is
changing transmitters, locomotives, and a lot of other stuff. I only worked DC in the telco biz,
but AC is being revolutionized too. Bruce Roe

AC motors is pretty much a mature technology and has been for many decades along with DC motors. DC motors have been the choice up to now, and still very popular understandable so because they are so easy and inexpensive to control.

There are some giant sized synchronous motors out there. Does not require a VFD naturally, but big nonetheless. Ironically the largest electric motors out there are used in petroleum refineries. Largest motor I know of is 66,000 hp that runs at 1800 RPM used in Delaware City Repower Project to turn cola into syngas. It is used to run a fan to pump air into a burner. Another way many folks do not know about is DOD and DOE run nuclear power and use the heat off reactors to make syngas for military, and generate electricity. Kind of easy to figure out which nuke plants do this because they have heavy rail to bring coal in and pipe lines to ship the product out.

But I agree the advancement in high voltage semiconductors is changing the face of 3-phase AC Induction motors. But as for the motors themselves nothing new, they are just getting larger. The only real advancement I know of is the USN is testing a new High Temperature Superconductor Ship motor rated at 49,000 hp running at 120 RPM @ 2.9 million Newton Meters of torque. That is one hell of a titty twister. . What is unique about it is 1/3 the size and weight of conventional 4 pole monster motors.

As a cost comparative though in my experience with racing golf carts is for about $1000 I can equip you with a 20 hp DC motor and 500 amp PWM speed controller. Want AC with that cart is going to cost you $3000 for a 16 hp 550 amp VFD Inverter. My current cart uses a HPEV 35 running at 144 volts with a 500 amp controller. It is a 35 hp continuous power motor. But do not let that fool you as it produces a Flat torque curve from 0 rpm to 6000 RPM of 90 Ft/lbs of torque and Flat 102 hp from 6000 RPM to 11,000 RPM. No transmission needed and I have it speed limited to 7000 RPM or 75 mph. In the 8th mile wil beat even a Telsa Roadster or gas car you want to race with. It wil scare the chit out of you. With my fat but in it only weighs 960 pounds.

[bcroe]

I'm not up on all the details, but I have read overviews of the technology. Railroads might have
been invented over there, but they were perfected as freight haulers right here. A box car over
there has 4 wheels; ours have 8. I don't see how the European coupler system can match the
efficiency of our knuckle couplers.

Diesel locomotives started around 600 hp and some are 10 times that now. My understanding is
each 3 axle truck had 2 motors, but lately there is so much power they are using 3 motors per
truck. I have read stories by engineers about the AC motor locomotives hauling heavy freight;
they do the job well. With electronic traction control, probably better.

The same evolution of high powered semiconductors that made these great GTIs practical is
changing transmitters, locomotives, and a lot of other stuff. I only worked DC in the telco biz,
but AC is being revolutionized too. Bruce Roe

[J.P.M.]

As for passenger rail service is not used much in the USA as it is not profitable and no companies offer passenger rail service. All of it to my knowledge is operated by goberment and heavily subsidised by tax payers.

Passenger rail service in the U.S. is gov. subsidized and not profitable, with intercity service for the most part only available via Amtrak on private railroad rights of way/tracks. However, it can be a nice, if somewhat expensive way to travel as long as you're not on a timetable to get somewhere on anything like a reliable schedule. Seems to me like a faint echo of past glory that's continuously fading due to changes in what folks expect and want in travel. About as anachronistic as seeing a horse/buggy going down the road in Amish country.

[Sunking]

In Europe there are some of those locomotives in service since late 80's and powered by cable above @ 27000v .
They use one motor per each wheel , or atleast some of the models.
The most advanced like the French TGV does Marseille to Paris less than 2 hrs, faster than the plane.

Raul that is not what I am asking. I understand what you are saying but does not apply. You are speaking of light rail or passenger rail service. For Light Rail you can use overhead lines. We do that in the USA mostly in the North East part of the country and around Chicago. Some rail service like like in NYC are using the Third Rail to supply power.

I am asking about Diesel/Electric Heavy Transportation, not light rail passenger. Diesel/Electric here for decades and even today is mostly done with DC Traction Motors. Diesel engine turns a AC generator and the the AC is ran through rectifiers and ran to the DC motors.

I think back in 2005 GE introduced some AC Locomotives. AC has not been used here much because it is extremely expensive to implement. The VFD Inverters prices have come down in the last 12 years and now some operators like CSX and BNSF have purchased and using a few AC locomotives for very heavy loads like coal, oil, and commodities. When you are running 4 locomotives with 6500 HP engines is way beyond what over head lines can transport over any significant distance. Only way to do that is with the generators on the locomotive diesel engines. Like DC Traction motors the diesel still turns a AC generator, rectified to DC, then the VFD converts DC back to AC to run the traction motors. Dependin gon th esize a locomotive uses 6 to 8 motors, one for each axle.

US environmental policy and the falling expense of implementing AC locomotives has changed the economic situation here. The Employment Prevention Agency (EPA) emission policy is getting stricter on Rail emissions. To meet those demands GE is now offering AC Drive trains because AC motors are more efficient than DC, thus uses less fuel. Like all policies they have unintended consequences. In this case it raises the price of everything. The fuel savings does not offset the cost of using AC motors up to now. Those cost are passed onto consumers as rail service does most of the long distance transportation in the USA and trucks are used for the last leg, or perishable commodities.

As for passenger rail service is not used much in the USA as it is not profitable and no companies offer passenger rail service. All of it to my knowledge is operated by goberment and heavily subsidised by tax payers.

[Raul]

In Europe there are some of those locomotives in service since late 80's and powered by cable above @ 27000v .
They use one motor per each wheel , or atleast some of the models.
The most advanced like the French TGV does Marseille to Paris less than 2 hrs, faster than the plane.

[Sunking]

I would mention, our latest locomotives use AC traction motors with an electronic drive, which
can pull really hard from a stall on up. So the technology to do such things is known, but it
isn't just a bunch of standard components thrown together. Bruce Roe

Bruce I am out of my element here but are you referring to some of the new GE Evolution series? I know there are some locomotives using AC motors and most are found in India and Europe. They have been slow to appear in the USA because of the extreme cost. I have heard BNSF and CSX has a few now days for heavy transportation for coal and other heavy loads.

I have really wanted to get a look at the VFD Inverter those beast use.I assume they drive 6 to 8 motors?

[bcroe]

I would mention, our latest locomotives use AC traction motors with an electronic drive, which
can pull really hard from a stall on up. So the technology to do such things is known, but it
isn't just a bunch of standard components thrown together. Bruce Roe

[asdex]

The franklins are standard three phase motors, why they used 208 volt instead of the 230 volt that is a lot more common in the us I do not know. It takes to many panels to run them (you have to get your volts pretty high) for the shallow wells i typically install pumps in so I have not installed one yet. I have sat through a few classes on them and they are definatly a standard pump/motor other than they are 208 which is available from the grid but kind of goofy in my neck of the woods.

They are all three phase, and not the more standard in low hp (less than 5) single phase phase pumps that have control boxes with capacitors and a starting relay that cuts the power out from the red wire once the motor has got up to speed.

The three phase pumps usually have a big pump panel disconnect box that has fuses overloads and a magnetic contactor all of which is there just to disconnect the pump. The pump sees the same power leaving the panel as enters. That pump panel is replaced by the solar box from franklin.


The Lorentz pumps run off dc then the box converts it to ac to run the pump. Don't believe me look at the motor, or try to check it while running with a volt meter, only reads ac voltage not dc. The voltage varries between the different sizes of motors the bigger ones higher voltage .


Just trying to get some info out there that not all solar pumps are dc. And most are not standard ac pumps like you would already have in your well.

Brian

I have a Lorentz pump, a P150 Boost-60 which runs from two 250w solar panels and no battery. The motor is AC and it has a very smart controller to convert the DC input to AC. In low sun it turns slowly and much faster in good sun. It pumps 250 liters per hour up to our house 110 meters above the pump.

[Wy_White_Wolf]

http://www.schneider-electric.com/en/product-range/62208-solar-water-pumping-system/

WWW

[Power]

It can be done with a dc to ac inverter!

[SunEagle]

A DC motor often has two sets of windings, one set to provide the stator field and one set to provide the rotor field.
The difference between a multiple phase AC motor and a mulitple phase pulsed DC motor is difficult to categorize fully. A pulsed DC motor using permanent magnets has a somewhat clearer distinction.

Most three phase AC motors are induction types where the rotor field is created by the stator field rather than being created by a set of coils.

In the past the distinction was that a DC or universal motor had a commutator to change the current and field direction in synchronization with the rotor position. But solid state electronics have made the pulsed DC system practical.

When I worked in the shingle business the web machines were hundreds of feet long with DC drives at specific locations to move the fiberglass web through the process of making an asphalt shingles. We used "field weakening" controls to adjust the motor speed of each drive. The original DC source was a motor generator. Later on we switched to electronic DC drives made by Reliance.

[inetdog]

Usually a DC motor can be reversed by switching two wires but so can an AC motor. Since I am only going by what I have read and you have hands on experience I would say I could be wrong and your are correct concerning the motor voltage.

Anyway it has been a learning experience for me and I thank you for providing the links and information for those pumping systems.

A DC motor often has two sets of windings, one set to provide the stator field and one set to provide the rotor field.
The difference between a multiple phase AC motor and a mulitple phase pulsed DC motor is difficult to categorize fully. A pulsed DC motor using permanent magnets has a somewhat clearer distinction.

Most three phase AC motors are induction types where the rotor field is created by the stator field rather than being created by a set of coils.

In the past the distinction was that a DC or universal motor had a commutator to change the current and field direction in synchronization with the rotor position. But solid state electronics have made the pulsed DC system practical.

[SunEagle]

Yes the pumps do start slow in the morning and then speed up, it depends on how many watts they need as to how long it takes to get to full speed or if they ever even do. Yes you have to have a supply, the few we have running houses either pump into a supply tank on a hill or fill a supply tank at the house and then have a booster pump from the grid that pressurized the house.

I would not recommend one for a house unless running power to the well is not a good option due to cost (the few we have are 3-4 miles from the house so wires are expensive).

The majority of the pumps we put in pump more than the windmills they were replacing by far.

As panels are getting cheaper they are getting a lot better about how much you can pump and how deep for a reasonable cost.

I agree that batteries charged by solar are not a good option at all for most pumping applications. We have set up a couple that you unplug the solar panels and plug into a couple of batteries that you charge at home and bring with you. Works ok if you don't own a generator or don't want to have to buy the expensive generator box from Lorentz. If you are going to do it very often buy the box. A grundfos pump is worth considering since they can be plugged strait into a generator or with an automatic disconnect box that will connect it back to the panels when the gen runs out of gas. However grundfos pumps don't work for every application.


I guess we will have to agree to disagree if the Lorentz pumps are ac or dc. I'll still call them ac even though they are not typical ac since the voltage and cycles are not the same as the grid. But it is a three phase motor that you can reverse the direction by switching any of the two wires, your volt meter has to be on ac to read the volts, and you can use a clamp on ac amp meter to read the amps. I'll put the voltage in the same category as a variable frequency drive fed from the grid, only it may vary more since the motors are designed to take it.

Brian

Usually a DC motor can be reversed by switching two wires but so can an AC motor. Since I am only going by what I have read and you have hands on experience I would say I could be wrong and your are correct concerning the motor voltage.

Anyway it has been a learning experience for me and I thank you for providing the links and information for those pumping systems.

[bwkemp]

Yes the pumps do start slow in the morning and then speed up, it depends on how many watts they need as to how long it takes to get to full speed or if they ever even do. Yes you have to have a supply, the few we have running houses either pump into a supply tank on a hill or fill a supply tank at the house and then have a booster pump from the grid that pressurized the house.

I would not recommend one for a house unless running power to the well is not a good option due to cost (the few we have are 3-4 miles from the house so wires are expensive).

The majority of the pumps we put in pump more than the windmills they were replacing by far.

As panels are getting cheaper they are getting a lot better about how much you can pump and how deep for a reasonable cost.

I agree that batteries charged by solar are not a good option at all for most pumping applications. We have set up a couple that you unplug the solar panels and plug into a couple of batteries that you charge at home and bring with you. Works ok if you don't own a generator or don't want to have to buy the expensive generator box from Lorentz. If you are going to do it very often buy the box. A grundfos pump is worth considering since they can be plugged strait into a generator or with an automatic disconnect box that will connect it back to the panels when the gen runs out of gas. However grundfos pumps don't work for every application.



I guess we will have to agree to disagree if the Lorentz pumps are ac or dc. I'll still call them ac even though they are not typical ac since the voltage and cycles are not the same as the grid. But it is a three phase motor that you can reverse the direction by switching any of the two wires, your volt meter has to be on ac to read the volts, and you can use a clamp on ac amp meter to read the amps. I'll put the voltage in the same category as a variable frequency drive fed from the grid, only it may vary more since the motors are designed to take it.

Brian