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  • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
    Read the definition again.
    Solar panels are green by definition because they tend to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting. It really is that simple.
    Dude, I am agreeing with you.

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    • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post


      I'm not defining the word "green", Merriam-Webster is.

      You're making an assumption that I'm on an environmental crusade - and I assure you, that isn't the case. I take airline travel often, eat beef, and modified my TDI's exhaust so that it is no longer a "clean diesel" (which by the way is questionable if it ever was) and like a lot of people, have made the choice to live in a house that is connected to a coal-fired power grid. I've also made the choice to install solar, drive an EV as my primary vehicle, planted ~200 trees & shrubs in our yard, grow some of our own food, compost, have rain barrels, recycle when possible, etc.

      I've never stated (or actually believe) that solar is the answer to "all of [the world's] pollution and power requirements". It has only offset some of my own pollution and power requirements.
      All very admirable actions on your part. I thank you for providing this information and agree with a lot of what you are doing.

      Sometimes I find it hard to determine where someone is positioning themselves. There are way too many people that have been brainwashed into believing solar is the answer to all power generation. I am sorry if I lumped you into that category.

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      • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

        All very admirable actions on your part. I thank you for providing this information and agree with a lot of what you are doing.

        Sometimes I find it hard to determine where someone is positioning themselves. There are way too many people that have been brainwashed into believing solar is the answer to all power generation. I am sorry if I lumped you into that category.
        I was at a loss prevention course decades ago. One thing that stuck was the instructor (head of loss prevention) telling us that 98% of us are basically honest, 1% are totally honest, and 1% are totally dishonest. Regardless if the ratios are correct or not, I think the same is basically true of whatever "position" we take on the environment.

        98% are basically concerned: "Wow, coral reefs in Australia are dying...geez, that's too bad."
        1% are totally concerned: "Honey, pack your bags, I've quit my job and we're taking the kids out of school. Coral reefs in Australia are dying...we leave tomorrow"
        1% aren't concerned at all: "Hey look, coral reefs in in Australia are turning white...cool!"

        I'm in the 98%...concerned, but not nearly at the point where I'm giving up everything to ride a bike in Maui and smoke weed with the OP (though a week of that might be fun). The problem with Internet forums is that they seem to attract the extremist 2% of the population.
        Last edited by oilerlord; 06-27-2016, 05:38 PM.
        oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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        • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post

          I was a loss prevention course decades ago. One thing that stuck was the instructor (head of loss prevention) telling us that 98% of us are basically honest, 1% are totally honest, and 1% are totally dishonest. Regardless if the ratios are correct or not, I think the same is basically true of whatever "position" we take on the environment.

          98% are basically concerned: "Wow, coral reefs in Australia are dying...geez, that's too bad."
          1% are totally concerned: "Honey, pack your bags, I've quit my job and we're taking the kids out of school. Coral reefs in Australia are dying...we leave tomorrow"
          1% aren't concerned at all: "Hey look, coral reefs in in Australia are turning white...cool!"

          I'm in the 98%...concerned, but not nearly at the point where I'm giving up everything to ride a bike in Maui and smoke weed with the OP (though a week of that might be fun). The problem with Internet forums is that they seem to attract the extremist 2% of the population.
          Very good explanation.

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          • Also, one of my best friends drives a Hummer H2. It's a monster, and I think he's crazy to drive it. He thinks my EV with it's 100 mile range is crazy too. We laugh and make jokes about each other's cars yet, we're best friends, and appreciate that the each other's cars are "cool" in their own ways. Sadly, that sort of thing doesn't happen often on the Internet.
            oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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            • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
              Also, one of my best friends drives a Hummer H2. It's a monster, and I think he's crazy to drive it. He thinks my EV with it's 100 mile range is crazy too. We laugh and make jokes about each other's cars yet, we're best friends, and appreciate that the each other's cars are "cool" in their own ways. Sadly, that sort of thing doesn't happen often on the Internet.
              Actually I would love to find a Hummer Hybrid that runs on bio diesel fuel and electric. But I doubt anyone would make one.

              I figure I will own an EV some day in the future. Maybe when I can justify the purchase but right now it would be an expense I could not afford.

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              • Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                Actually I would love to find a Hummer Hybrid that runs on bio diesel fuel and electric. But I doubt anyone would make one.

                I figure I will own an EV some day in the future. Maybe when I can justify the purchase but right now it would be an expense I could not afford.
                I did a comparison on another forum about selling my old faithful Audi that had 100,000 miles on it, and was beginning to become a money pit. Compared was the cost of fuel & maintenance with the Audi vs my 2014 B-Class Electric that I bought used last month for about 60% off original MSRP (typical for most non-Tesla EV's). It turns out that excluding consumable items such as tires, brakes, wipers, lights, etc, I spent about $25,000 on the Audi. With no fuel, oil changes, timing belts, fuel pumps, the EV should cost ~$2,000 in electricity with near zero maintenance required (except for consumables mentioned). IF this EV lasts 100,000 miles, the car will nearly pay for itself.

                For me, the car is fantastic, has more range than I need 99% of the time, and the total cost of ownership made sense. For others, perhaps not so much.
                oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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                • Tending to preserve environmental quality (as by being recyclable, biodegradable, or nonpolluting)
                  A gain in one field, and losses in 2 others, might make something neutral, but neutral is not the same as green. There are many embedded environmental costs in a PV panel, from smelting the ore to extrude the aluminum frames, chemicals to make the insulators, adhesives, backsheets and then the silicon wafers, their chemical processing, it's all messy stuff. Only the final install looks "green". Once installed, in 30 years, the expected lifetime is reached, and most of the materials can be recycled, aluminum and glass reclaimed, plastic and adhesives burned, and other metals (copper leads) reclaimed, making the next set a bit more greener by using some recycled base materials.
                  It's like all the electric cars have a heavy footprint from the battery manufacturing. No good recycle process for the Lithium battery industry yet, mining raw materials seems to be the easiest, rather then trying to re-refine the old battery (unlike a lead-acid battery which is easily recycled to new batteries)


                  Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                  || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                  || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                  solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                  gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post

                    A gain in one field, and losses in 2 others, might make something neutral, but neutral is not the same as green.
                    ...in your opinion.

                    Mike, read the definition again. "Recyclable, biodegradable, OR nonpolluting". Keyword = "or" not "and". Also, uses the word "tending" and not an absolute such as "totally". As per Merriam-Webster's definition of green, all three qualities are not required, only one of them. For that reason, a solar panel is green because it tends to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting.

                    oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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                    • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post

                      ...in your opinion.

                      Mike, read the definition again. "Recyclable, biodegradable, OR nonpolluting". Keyword = "or" not "and". Also, uses the word "tending" and not an absolute such as "totally". As per Merriam-Webster's definition of green, all three qualities are not required, only one of them. For that reason, a solar panel is green because it tends to preserve environmental quality as by being nonpolluting.
                      I appreciate precise use of the English language, but does anyone else besides me see this as a bit pedantic ?

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                      • Well I can use the same logic by saying I do not use any electrical power at night so I must be GREEN.

                        But IMO to get that "green" label the entire set of points needs to be met. Not just one or two.

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                        • Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                          I appreciate precise use of the English language, but does anyone else besides me see this as a bit pedantic ?
                          Unfortunately, the word "green" is bandied about, and comes with emotional baggage based on people's individual social and political values concerning the environment. Clearly the actual Merriam-Webster definition is breaking brains because thousands of posts on this forum have been now proven - wrong.

                          I figured the easiest way to answer the OP's question was to simply post the actual definition of the word instead of getting everyone's "take" on it.
                          oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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                          • All Green is a Marketing Buzz Word that has no meaning, and means nothing.
                            MSEE, PE

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                            • Originally posted by jpm
                              I appreciate precise use of the English language, but does anyone else besides me see this as a bit pedantic ?
                              Yep. It's like someone here jumping all over someone else because he is talking about an AC outlet, claiming "it's only AC if there is alternating CURRENT, and there's no current if there is nothing plugged into it! You are WRONG to call it an AC outlet!"

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                              • Merriam-Webster is only one opinion..
                                There are many others that define Green somewhat differently. Expand your horizons, don't fit into the first box you find.


                                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                                Comment

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