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  • It's more like someone that refuses to acknowledge what they believed for years was categorically incorrect, so they straw-man the conversation in the attempt save face. Goes to my previous point about Internet forums and the 98%/1%/1%. If asked if solar is green, 98% of the general public would probably answer "yes". The other 2% land here.

    As for jumping on anyone, I'd recommend jumping on Merriam-Webster. I hear she's hot.
    oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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    • Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
      Merriam-Webster is only one opinion..
      There are many others that define Green somewhat differently. Expand your horizons, don't fit into the first box you find.


      Merriam-Webster is a reference, not an opinion. That said, I have an open mind so took your advice to expand my horizons:

      Cambridge:

      "To do more to protect nature and the environment"

      Pretty sure solar panels do that.

      Oxford:

      "(Of a product) not harmful to the environment"

      The energy and materials used in the process may be considered harmful but the "product" is not.

      MacMillan:

      "Designed to protect the environment or to limit damage to the environment."

      I may be way off base here...but pretty sure solar panels do that too.



      oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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      • Oxford comes pretty close. It's like EV's are "green". They just shift the pollution into somebody elses backyard, and then folks in Santa Monica and San Francisco can feel self righteous because they are green and the peons are not.

        PV panels being green, is not a slam dunk. That's the point you are missing. There is big pollution to make them. if you get them to be carbon neutral over half their lifetime, and then they spend the last half of lifetime being green, then you have some gains. But as long as coal and oil are being burned to create "green stuff" it's not really that green is it.
        Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
        || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
        || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

        solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
        gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

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        • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
          It's more like someone that refuses to acknowledge what they believed for years was categorically incorrect, so they straw-man the conversation in the attempt save face. Goes to my previous point about Internet forums and the 98%/1%/1%. If asked if solar is green, 98% of the general public would probably answer "yes". The other 2% land here.

          As for jumping on anyone, I'd recommend jumping on Merriam-Webster. I hear she's hot.
          LOL. Do you have a picture of her?

          I understand what you have posted and somewhat agree with you about solar being green.

          I just hate to hear people that have swallowed the "cool-aid" and are now brain washed into believing something that is not totally true.

          Again I fully support solar and RE as a needed power source but do not feel it should be the only source or even 50% of the power generated. IMO that would be very risky and prone to electrical disruptions.
          Last edited by SunEagle; 06-28-2016, 07:08 PM. Reason: spelling

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          • Originally posted by jflorey2 View Post
            Yep. It's like someone here jumping all over someone else because he is talking about an AC outlet, claiming "it's only AC if there is alternating CURRENT, and there's no current if there is nothing plugged into it! You are WRONG to call it an AC outlet!"
            Not to mention that when a layman refers to an AC outlet, the electrician knows that they probably mean a receptacle outlet, also called a receptacle.
            The box in the ceiling that the built-in light fixture attaches to is also an outlet.

            To me green can mean too many different things to too many people to be a very useful word except within each specialized group.
            So I will speak of carbon footprint, energy balance, other effects on the environment, etc. instead of depending on green to carry the meaning.

            To SK, green connotes an overhyped misguided effort toward "correctness" of one sort or another, so the last thing I would do is recommend something to him as "green".
            Last edited by inetdog; 06-28-2016, 07:20 PM.
            SunnyBoy 3000 US, 18 BP Solar 175B panels.

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            • Relax guys,let's keep things in perspective. If a friend of mine calls my solar arrays, or some of the choices that I make "green", I just say "thanks".

              Personally, I don't know what's worse...the SolarCity huckster using "green" as a sales tool to close a juicy deal on an uninformed homeowner, or when a newbie excited about his new solar visits this site and may be told (or possibly ridiculed) by a "moderator" or "solar fanatic" that what he's doing isn't actually green. Sad on both counts.

              Yeah sure, the "truth" n e e d s to be told, right? It takes energy and a measure of bad stuff to produce the solar panels that people are proudly installing on their rooftops. Big deal. Still green, and I applaud the effort.
              oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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              • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
                Relax guys,let's keep things in perspective. If a friend of mine calls my solar arrays, or some of the choices that I make "green", I just say "thanks".

                Personally, I don't know what's worse...the SolarCity huckster using "green" as a sales tool to close a juicy deal on an uninformed homeowner, or when a newbie excited about his new solar visits this site and may be told (or possibly ridiculed) by a "moderator" or "solar fanatic" that what he's doing isn't actually green. Sad on both counts.

                Yeah sure, the "truth" n e e d s to be told, right? It takes energy and a measure of bad stuff to produce the solar panels that people are proudly installing on their rooftops. Big deal. Still green, and I applaud the effort.
                All true. Sometimes it takes a little brutal speaking by a Moderator or other forum member to keep people from wasting money because they have rose colored glasses on and get ripped off by those greedy solar sales hucksters.

                What I would like to see is if people really want to help the environment is to hear what they have done to reduce their electrical usage as well as using less of something that pollutes our air.

                That could come in the form of conserving by changing out low efficient appliances with high efficient ones, changing the type of lighting in their homes, turning off their electrical devices when the sun isn't shining or RE isn't available or not using a fossil fuel vehicle.

                What I do see are people (not pointing a finger toward you) that like to claim they are helping the world become "green" by only installing solar pv and now that they get a lower bill from their POCO they can use more electricity. IMO that is not being green.

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                • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
                  Relax guys,let's keep things in perspective. If a friend of mine calls my solar arrays, or some of the choices that I make "green", I just say "thanks".

                  Personally, I don't know what's worse...the SolarCity huckster using "green" as a sales tool to close a juicy deal on an uninformed homeowner, or when a newbie excited about his new solar visits this site and may be told (or possibly ridiculed) by a "moderator" or "solar fanatic" that what he's doing isn't actually green. Sad on both counts.

                  Yeah sure, the "truth" n e e d s to be told, right? It takes energy and a measure of bad stuff to produce the solar panels that people are proudly installing on their rooftops. Big deal. Still green, and I applaud the effort.
                  IMO, "green" has lost it's effectiveness as having to do much with using less energy. Probably somewhat the opposite these days and used more as another tool to separate fools from their assets.

                  I'd side w/the SolarCity slug being worse on the observation that most or maybe all of the time the peddler will likely cost the mark more money than if the mark listens to folks, probably like me, who (I hope) cause some reality checks.

                  People still get screwed way too much, but no one put a gun to their head and forced them to do or even pay attention to a word or two suggesting caution, a step back and some education/reality checks.

                  Folks see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. If they pay attention to what the devil's advocate side says, get informed and use their heads, they may save a few bucks, get screwed a bit less and have less impact on the environment. They can always go the other way if they don't like the results.

                  Whether the environmental impact of a solar array is a "big deal" or not is hard to quantify, partly dependent on who defines what a big deal is.

                  To offset a certain amount of electric use, using an array to generate electricity, or using the simplest conservation measures (turn stuff off, or simply using less) will produce and equal reduction in an electric bill. Not using electricity in the first place will be less costly and increase the entropy of the universe less which will, as I learned it anyway, probably be better for the environment.

                  It's all a matter of degree.

                  In selling, somewhat like war, truth is the first casualty. Peddlers don't make money by telling you to use less electricity. They make money by putting solar equipment on property - a lot of it, from what I can see, in a non cost effective way with a less than fit for purpose outcome, a good part of that being the result of, and similar to most of their self induced high electric bills, people's slothful and avoidable ignorance. Follow the money.

                  As usual, take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

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                  • Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post


                    To offset a certain amount of electric use, using an array to generate electricity, or using the simplest conservation measures (turn stuff off, or simply using less) will produce and equal reduction in an electric bill. Not using electricity in the first place will be less costly and increase the entropy of the universe less which will, as I learned it anyway, probably be better for the environment.

                    In selling, somewhat like war, truth is the first casualty. Peddlers don't make money by telling you to use less electricity. They make money by putting solar equipment on property - a lot of it, from what I can see, in a non cost effective way with a less than fit for purpose outcome, a good part of that being the result of, and similar to most of their self induced high electric bills, people's slothful and avoidable ignorance. Follow the money.
                    We're all in sales in some way, shape, or form. Kids learn sales at an early age. "Dad, you've worked hard today and shouldn't have to cook dinner...we should go to McDonalds". That's a nine year old that knows how to close, and can distinguish between a feature and benefit.

                    Here, we sell each other on our point of view. It doesn't have to be "war", just an open debate that doesn't need to get personal when we don't agree with each other. I got to thinking about the people that write the actual definitions for dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Oxford, and MacMillan, and how careful they need to be with language when defining words we use in pop culture. Even with that, clearly defined terms are still twisted to fit an individual's preconceived meaning of the word.

                    A member told me to expand my horizons (more or less calling me narrow-minded), and "don't fit into the first box you find" because he didn't agree with Merriam-Webster's definition of "green". So, I provided three more dictionary sources that essentially stated the same meaning. Then, he jumps on one meaning that that fits into his box because it's "close" to what he believes to be true. That's the kind of call-the-kettle-black stuff that drives me nuts on Internet forums.
                    oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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                    • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post

                      We're all in sales in some way, shape, or form. Kids learn sales at an early age. "Dad, you've worked hard today and shouldn't have to cook dinner...we should go to McDonalds". That's a nine year old that knows how to close, and can distinguish between a feature and benefit.

                      Here, we sell each other on our point of view. It doesn't have to be "war", just an open debate that doesn't need to get personal when we don't agree with each other. I got to thinking about the people that write the actual definitions for dictionaries like Merriam-Webster, Cambridge, Oxford, and MacMillan, and how careful they need to be with language when defining words we use in pop culture. Even with that, clearly defined terms are still twisted to fit an individual's preconceived meaning of the word.

                      A member told me to expand my horizons (more or less calling me narrow-minded), and "don't fit into the first box you find" because he didn't agree with Merriam-Webster's definition of "green". So, I provided three more dictionary sources that essentially stated the same meaning. Then, he jumps on one meaning that that fits into his box because it's "close" to what he believes to be true. That's the kind of call-the-kettle-black stuff that drives me nuts on Internet forums.
                      Sounds like good advice for everyone about the box thing, but that's just one opinion.

                      I wasn't drawing an analogy between war and selling, but that they often share a common attribute that truth, or something close to it, is often missing in both endeavors early on.

                      In one or several senses, seems to me everyone's a peddler, whether they know it, or admit it, or neither. And, whether they know it, or admit it, or neither, everyone can be manipulated, either by someone else, or by themselves. Those who think they can't are sitting ducks. It's just a matter of finding what works.

                      Before changing careers to engineering, I made a good living for about 10 years informing people of the benefits of buying what I was peddling. Some would call that manipulation, and I agree, but opinions vary. Now, being retired, I get to bloviate all over the place w/no skin in the game. The race is over. The rats lost.

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                      • Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                        Before changing careers to engineering, I made a good living for about 10 years informing people of the benefits of buying what I was peddling. Some would call that manipulation, and I agree, but opinions vary. Now, being retired, I get to bloviate all over the place w/no skin in the game. The race is over. The rats lost.
                        Hucksters are in every industry but there are good salespeople too. I'm in IT, and see even the large firms use fear & anxiety as their main closing tools. The client is in a very vulnerable position because they don't understand the lingo that the IT "professional" spouts off. In many cases, the client just nods like they understand, and signs the deal in fear of downtime. Happens a lot in my industry. I'm not saying people shouldn't earn a living, but they should be able to look in the mirror after the day is done. Integrity matters.

                        Good salespeople understand that relationships are everything, and that a little honesty goes a long way to secure them. I wonder how many times the SolarCity lizards have suggested "Actually, you don't need solar" to a client. Probably zero.

                        Before doing anything, Our house was at an annual 15mWh. In terms of reduction, there were a few gimmies, like better use of A/C. That brought it down to ~12mWh. We then changed out all are lights to LED, and changed to a gas dryer among other power reduction measures. That got it down to ~10mWh.

                        As a newbie, you were a great help to me in helping me size our solar to what we actually needed. Thanks for that. I bought used, 5-year old panels and with the help of this site, found the resources & tools to do most of the site design on my own including a lot of the installation. The total came in at USD$1.68 per watt, with no subsidies, rebates, or tax incentives.
                        Last edited by oilerlord; 06-30-2016, 04:13 PM.
                        oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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                        • jflorey2
                          jflorey2 commented
                          Editing a comment
                          > I wonder how many times the SolarCity lizards have suggested "Actually, you don't need solar" to a client. Probably zero.

                          I've actually seen this. I was talking to them about the powerwall (they knew almost nothing about it) and while I was there someone came by to ask about solar. His usage was very low; he mentioned he had new A/C and had replaced his lights. (And in coastal San Diego you just don't need A/C that much.) The woman he was talking to said "well, you use so little power that you won't save much money by going solar, but we'd still be happy to give you an estimate."

                          But that's probably the exception rather than the rule.

                      • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post
                        Here, we sell each other on our point of view. It doesn't have to be "war", just an open debate that doesn't need to get personal when we don't agree with each other.
                        It's harder than it sounds. "straight talk" can come across as a personal attack even when not intended as such; see
                        http://fistfuloftalent.com/2015/11/y...just-rude.html
                        http://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/...de-3-tips.html
                        17kw. I like science, but I'm no expert.

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                        • Originally posted by oilerlord View Post

                          Hucksters are in every industry but there are good salespeople too. I'm in IT, and see even the large firms use fear & anxiety as their main closing tools. The client is in a very vulnerable position because they don't understand the lingo that the IT "professional" spouts off. In many cases, the client just nods like they understand, and signs the deal in fear of downtime. Happens a lot in my industry. I'm not saying people shouldn't earn a living, but they should be able to look in the mirror after the day is done. Integrity matters.

                          Good salespeople understand that relationships are everything, and that a little honesty goes a long way to secure them. I wonder how many times the SolarCity lizards have suggested "Actually, you don't need solar" to a client. Probably zero.

                          Before doing anything, Our house was at an annual 15mW. In terms of reduction, there were a few gimmies, like better use of A/C. That brought it down to ~12mW. We then changed out all are lights to LED, and changed to a gas dryer among other power reduction measures. That got it down to ~10mW.

                          As a newbie, you were a great help to me in helping me size our solar to what we actually needed. Thanks for that. I bought used, 5-year old panels and with the help of this site, found the resources & tools to do most of the site design on my own including a lot of the installation. The total came in at USD$1.68 per watt, with no subsidies, rebates, or tax incentives.
                          I think we're mostly on the same page with respect to selling and integrity, and the idea that SolarCity is a bottom feeder in many respects.

                          Also, FWIW, nice work on load reduction. You could be a poster for one of my mantras.

                          BTW, that usage you speak of is in mega-watt hours or thousands of kilowatt-hours, not megaWatts. Makes no difference to me, but that kind of ignorance based mistake doesn't help your cause when separating fly crap from pepper as has happened recently between you and other posters who've been around the subject for probably as long or longer than you've been on the planet. Just sayin'.

                          Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

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                          • Hey it's the OP

                            This thing is still going?

                            I still ride my bicycle alot but other than that I buy all my food at the store and throw the wrappers on the side of the road.

                            Today I rode my bicycle to a junkyard with 2 little girls in a trailer and showed them the cars so they could see some reality. I was looking for a rear axle, found one from a 2002 Mustang for free, we're gonna make a giant tricycle with it and a 160cc lawnmower engine and a small bicycle and 2 12 foot beams of wood, push start it, control it with throttle and brake and just slow to a stop to stall the engine, no clutch, no gear changes.

                            It was arranged that their father would come to the junkyard later and get some parts for the window of their minivan, he took the little girls home after. I tied the 200lb Mustang axle with suv tires to the bicycle trailer, then a few miles down the road the trailer welds failed (damn Walmart small lightweight flimsy bicycle trailers for pussies). Gonna upgrade the trailer to handle alot more force. The thrashing of the 5 foot wide axle and the 4 foot distance from axle center to the bicycle hitch made it very unstable, the trailer wanted to pull the rear of the bicycle out from under me but instead it broke the trailer. I didn't care about the trailer too much, my thing is "Hey people, the cars that run on water are still not here yet, and they never will, better use your muscles and pedal a bike.".

                            I love the cranking, feels good to me, and I like expressing how easy it is to ride a bicycle with ridiculous cargo (damn Walmart small lightweight flimsy bicycle trailers for pussies). But I also love SPAM and GMO veggies. **** being vegan, I'm tired of people asking me if I drink my own urine for health.

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                            • Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                              BTW, that usage you speak of is in mega-watt hours or thousands of kilowatt-hours, not megaWatts.
                              Yes, missed the "h", good catch...my mistake. Post edited.
                              oilerlord's 9.23kW Plant

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