generator not charging..a battery of questions..lol

[piper]

Here's whats going on. I have my cabin, which was purchased this past summer. It came with a solar system with one panel, (3X2ft) not sure of the voltage. It has a bank of six batteries as well as an inverter. It also came with a kawasaki 2A generator.

The panel has been charging the batteries up to between 13.6-13.98, depending on the cloud coverage. Problem lately is that because I live in northern ontario, the panel is often covered in snow or ice this time of year. I visit the cabin about once every couple of weeks, and on arrival the voltage is in its boots. A few days ago I was out there after a freezing rain, the panel was caked in ice. The voltage was reading 12.44, so I decided to fire up the generator to try and charge the batteries. Well I let it run for a good while with no change in voltage. I am starting to wonder if I am doing something wrong, the generator never seems to charge very well.

There is a transfer switch with the option of "normal" or "generator". I of course place it on generator, fire up the generator...and let it go...I am always unsure if the inverter has to be on for the generator to charge??

I have had it charging in the past....just not very fast at all..and now its not charging at all this last time out.

Ill try to include pics of my system... I'd appreaciate any advice at all! thanks!!



on a side note: I just tried to add pictures from my iphone...but its saying they are exceeding the forum limit of file size. Any ideas how to get them on here???

[piper]

sorry meant to write kawasaki 2900A

[inetdog]

There is a transfer switch with the option of "normal" or "generator". I of course place it on generator, fire up the generator...and let it go...I am always unsure if the inverter has to be on for the generator to charge??

I have had it charging in the past....just not very fast at all..and now its not charging at all this last time out.

Placing the transfer switch to Generator will power your inside loads from the generator instead of the inverter output. But somewhere there has to be a charger.
If you have a separate AC charger, make sure that it is plugged into the main AC or into the Generator directly and is turned on. Maybe it is defective?

If you cannot find a separate AC charger connected to the batteries, then you may have a combined Inverter/Charger, but it will probably not be getting any power with the transfer switch in the generator position. In the past maybe running the generator just took all of the load off the inverter and let the panels slowly do the charging that you saw?

[piper]

Placing the transfer switch to Generator will power your inside loads from the generator instead of the inverter output. But somewhere there has to be a charger.
If you have a separate AC charger, make sure that it is plugged into the main AC or into the Generator directly and is turned on. Maybe it is defective?

If you cannot find a separate AC charger connected to the batteries, then you may have a combined Inverter/Charger, but it will probably not be getting any power with the transfer switch in the generator position. In the past maybe running the generator just took all of the load off the inverter and let the panels slowly do the charging that you saw?

There is a 3 prong outlet coming from the transfer switch that I plug into the generator... how fast should the generator charge up this type of system?? It seems that it takes much longer than when i am using sunshine... maybe I didnt let it run long enough..but in the [past I have let it run for over 2 hrs...with a change from 12.40 up to maybe 12.6 or so....not sure how long this is supposed to take.

I took pics of my whole setup..but am unsure how to upload them..the pics are too big, ill see if i can get them on here soon

[inetdog]

There is a 3 prong outlet coming from the transfer switch that I plug into the generator... how fast should the generator charge up this type of system?? It seems that it takes much longer than when i am using sunshine... maybe I didnt let it run long enough..but in the [past I have let it run for over 2 hrs...with a change from 12.40 up to maybe 12.6 or so....not sure how long this is supposed to take.

I took pics of my whole setup..but am unsure how to upload them..the pics are too big, ill see if i can get them on here soon

As I said, look at the wires connected to the batteries and follow them back to see whether you can find a charger whose other side is connected to the house AC wiring on the output side of the transfer switch. If you cannot find anything, then you cannot be charging from the generator.
When you successfully "charged from the generator" before, was the sun shining on the panels?

[Helmon]

Should you have another A/C charger, ensure that it is plugged into the main A/C or in to the Electrical generator directly and is also switched on.
Putting the exchange swap to help Electrical generator willpower your own interior a good deal from your generator instead of the inverter result. Although anywhere there needs to be a charger.
mod note
I had a feeling the links were coming.
Once more and you are gone

[piper]

Okay I managed to figure out how to reduce file size, so here are my photos of my solar system. let me know what you all think. If there is something obvious that you see that may be leading to this problem chargin, let me know...thanks!!

oh ya, forgive the annoying watermark in the pics..it was part of not paying for the program i downloaded to change the file size

[inetdog]

Okay I managed to figure out how to reduce file size, so here are my photos of my solar system. let me know what you all think. If there is something obvious that you see that may be leading to this problem chargin, let me know...thanks!!

oh ya, forgive the annoying watermark in the pics..it was part of not paying for the program i downloaded to change the file size

The one thing that stands out is that the wide Trace module is labelled as an inverter/charger. But if it is not connected in some way to the generator side of the transfer switch, then the batteries will not be charged by it when the transfer switch is set to run from the generator.
There is more complicated wiring involved here than can be traced from what I can see in the photos.

[FloridaSun]

Okay I managed to figure out how to reduce file size, so here are my photos of my solar system. let me know what you all think. If there is something obvious that you see that may be leading to this problem chargin, let me know...thanks!!

oh ya, forgive the annoying watermark in the pics..it was part of not paying for the program i downloaded to change the file size

According to Trace DR specs...
"Automation: Plug into utility power or rev-up your generator and the DR model inverter starts charging your batteries and automatically transfers your AC input power to your AC electrical system. It charges rapidly and completely without overcharging and maintains the full charge indefinitely. The high power sychronous-rectification design charges batteries in three stages -- bulk, absorption, and then float. When your AC input power fails, transfer to inverter power is also automatic and typically within 16 milliseconds."
... you wouldn't even need to throw a switch to change from battery to generator power while charging batteries at same time.

You mentioned, "I visit the cabin about once every couple of weeks, and on arrival the voltage is in its boots." May be the batteries are ruined by now and they're not taking a charge? That ONE 3x2 ft panel (100watt?) you say you have would barely maintain that 600+AH battery bank while you're away.

Hope you have that generator exhaust routed outside your power room. Having that fuel tank so close to the electrical system would make me nervous.

[Beanyboy57]

Placing the transfer switch to Generator will power your inside loads from the generator instead of the inverter output. But somewhere there has to be a charger.

If you cannot find a separate AC charger connected to the batteries, then you may have a combined Inverter/Charger, but it will probably not be getting any power with the transfer switch in the generator position. In the past maybe running the generator just took all of the load off the inverter and let the panels slowly do the charging that you saw?

It looks to me like he has an inverter/charger and yes I agree you should have the switch in the normal position for it to charge the batteries. Have you put a meter on to the charge cables where they terminate at the battery to see how much current you have when the generator is running? Have you tested the batteries to see if they are okay (using a hydrometer or digital meter)? Do you know how old the batteries may be?

[piper]

According to Trace DR specs...
"Automation: Plug into utility power or rev-up your generator and the DR model inverter starts charging your batteries and automatically transfers your AC input power to your AC electrical system. It charges rapidly and completely without overcharging and maintains the full charge indefinitely. The high power sychronous-rectification design charges batteries in three stages -- bulk, absorption, and then float. When your AC input power fails, transfer to inverter power is also automatic and typically within 16 milliseconds."
... you wouldn't even need to throw a switch to change from battery to generator power while charging batteries at same time.

You mentioned, "I visit the cabin about once every couple of weeks, and on arrival the voltage is in its boots." May be the batteries are ruined by now and they're not taking a charge? That ONE 3x2 ft panel (100watt?) you say you have would barely maintain that 600+AH battery bank while you're away.

Hope you have that generator exhaust routed outside your power room. Having that fuel tank so close to the electrical system would make me nervous.

On arrival to the camp, the lowest I have seen the voltage is 12.43, this was after a big snowaquall, when the panel is covered with snow. I have been out there to sweep it off often enough. But as I was saying, I just purchased this camp,. so I dont know how often the previous owner was out there to do the same. If I had to guess... he's much busier, and the camp wasnt his priority anymore so probably less. I will call him and see how old the batteries are. So you are saying I need more panels?? thats what I was thinking...theres a whole lot of battery, and not much panel., if I remember correctly, when I was sweeping it off I noticed it was 140 W. how many Watts of panel total would you suggest?

I do have access to more new panels. Not sure how many, but im going to check those out today.

As for the generator, it is vented outside.

For the rest of the system, does everything look half decent for a camp?? I know nothing about the quality of this kind of stuff.

Thanks for The input

[piper]

It looks to me like he has an inverter/charger and yes I agree you should have the switch in the normal position for it to charge the batteries. Have you put a meter on to the charge cables where they terminate at the battery to see how much current you have when the generator is running? Have you tested the batteries to see if they are okay (using a hydrometer or digital meter)? Do you know how old the batteries may be?

all valid questions to ask...I bought a hydrometer.. but didnt get the electrolyte into the device...its like a turkey baster concept, only it didnt bring the fluid into the device. ill have to try that again...

how much current should I see coming from the charge cables where they terminate on the battery? in what units?? using a multimeter I gather? to test the batteries, what is the proper way to do that. and what tools are required...all silly questions, however, im silly when it comes to this system, ..learning lots though, thanks for all the help!

[FloridaSun]

On arrival to the camp, the lowest I have seen the voltage is 12.43, this was after a big snowaquall, when the panel is covered with snow. I have been out there to sweep it off often enough. But as I was saying, I just purchased this camp,. so I dont know how often the previous owner was out there to do the same. If I had to guess... he's much busier, and the camp wasnt his priority anymore so probably less. I will call him and see how old the batteries are. So you are saying I need more panels?? thats what I was thinking...theres a whole lot of battery, and not much panel., if I remember correctly, when I was sweeping it off I noticed it was 140 W. how many Watts of panel total would you suggest?

I do have access to more new panels. Not sure how many, but im going to check those out today.

As for the generator, it is vented outside.

For the rest of the system, does everything look half decent for a camp?? I know nothing about the quality of this kind of stuff.

Thanks for The input

The quality seems ok (to me) but sadly it is set up as a 12 volt system with present charge controller, inverter/charger. Your 25 amp charge controller might support 300AH of battery and adding another panel will help but you really need to understand your insolation factor to get the final numbers on supporting your batteries.... if they are still worth keeping.
You really should read the stickies in 'off grid systems' here to get an idea of what you can do with what you have to work with.

[inetdog]

all valid questions to ask...I bought a hydrometer.. but didnt get the electrolyte into the device...its like a turkey baster concept, only it didnt bring the fluid into the device. ill have to try that again...

Red flag!
If the hydrometer did not suck in any fluid, most likely the level of electrolyte in the cells has dropped below the top of the plates, where the rubber tube cannot reach it.
Carefully look down the fill hole. If you don't see the liquid surface, add distilled water until you do, the rock or shake the battery awhile (or let it charge for awhile) and try the hydrometer again.
Although first checking to see whether your new hydrometer can suck water from a glass would be a good first step.

If the level of the electrolyte has gone below the tops of the plates, the batteries have suffered at least some damage and will need to be checked carefully and possibly replaced.

[Beanyboy57]

all valid questions to ask...I bought a hydrometer.. but didnt get the electrolyte into the device...its like a turkey baster concept, only it didnt bring the fluid into the device. ill have to try that again...

how much current should I see coming from the charge cables where they terminate on the battery? in what units?? using a multimeter I gather? to test the batteries, what is the proper way to do that. and what tools are required...all silly questions, however, im silly when it comes to this system, ..learning lots though, thanks for all the help!

What you would be looking for is a noticeable difference between the DC volts in the cables when you are charging and the Dc volts on the battery terminals. It's a rough guide to see if the power supplied from you generator is actually making it to the battery bank.
You should also hear some movement of the fluid in the cells when you are putting a bulk charge into your batteries.

Yes, use a multimeter and make sure that you flush the fluid from the battery several times in and out of your hydrometer before you attempt to measure each cell.
If the fluid is too low then, as you have already been told, you will more than likely have sustained some damage to your battery bank.