generator not charging..a battery of questions..lol

[piper]

My guess about the transfer switch is that the panel is wired to allow 240 volt input in the form of two 120 volt busses with opposite phase, which is normal for a POCO feed. This is also what the inverter produces. But the inverter is able to, at least to some extent, provide more power to one of the lines than the other in case of unequal demand.
When the generator is used, it does not have quite the same ability, and if you were to turn on loads which were all or mostly on one bus, the overcurrent protection on the generator might trip.

When the transfer switch is in the generator position, I am guessing that it takes only one of the two generator output wires (the one which is fed with the switch in the 120/20Amp position) and connects it to both busses in the breaker panel. When that happens, the generator is also disconnected from the inverter charger. This would allow you to start somewhat larger 120 volt motors as well as allowing for unbalanced loads.

Logical, but not exactly a common way to wire things up, and it should have been documented a lot better by the former owner!

As to the battery voltage dropping from 13.6 to 12.9, that is to be expected with time, and even faster if there is any load, even the idle current of the inverter. For a resting voltage (neither being charged nor discharged for about 4 hours), 12.9 volts corresponds to 100% SOC. If you have the inverter/charger switched off completely and the voltage does not drop below ~12.7 volts after 4 hours, that is the best you should expect. Next step is to make another try to look at the SG of each cell.

The previous owner is a slacker from what Im starting to see out there. Its not a common way to wire things as you said, and it doesnt surprise me. He did many uncommon things out there.

I will be looking into getting a hydrometer to check out those batteries. Just wondering, at what point on the voltage display should I be engaging the charger. Im thinking 12.4-12.5? I appreaciate everybodys input on this thread, if anyone has more to add feel free...thanks!

[inetdog]

I had never changed this switch until today. I put it on the "240V+120V Total 10A", along with switching the transfer switch to "normal" rather than "generator" and magic....the charging light came on!

My guess about the transfer switch is that the panel is wired to allow 240 volt input in the form of two 120 volt busses with opposite phase, which is normal for a POCO feed. This is also what the inverter produces. But the inverter is able to, at least to some extent, provide more power to one of the lines than the other in case of unequal demand.
When the generator is used, it does not have quite the same ability, and if you were to turn on loads which were all or mostly on one bus, the overcurrent protection on the generator might trip.

When the transfer switch is in the generator position, I am guessing that it takes only one of the two generator output wires (the one which is fed with the switch in the 120/20Amp position) and connects it to both busses in the breaker panel. When that happens, the generator is also disconnected from the inverter charger. This would allow you to start somewhat larger 120 volt motors as well as allowing for unbalanced loads.

Logical, but not exactly a common way to wire things up, and it should have been documented a lot better by the former owner!

As to the battery voltage dropping from 13.6 to 12.9, that is to be expected with time, and even faster if there is any load, even the idle current of the inverter. For a resting voltage (neither being charged nor discharged for about 4 hours), 12.9 volts corresponds to 100% SOC. If you have the inverter/charger switched off completely and the voltage does not drop below ~12.7 volts after 4 hours, that is the best you should expect. Next step is to make another try to look at the SG of each cell.

[piper]

went out there today...I noticed a small switch on the front of my generator. One way you can select "120 V only Total 20A" the other way you can select "240V+120V Total 10A".

I had never changed this switch until today. I put it on the "240V+120V Total 10A", along with switching the transfer switch to "normal" rather than "generator" and magic....the charging light came on!

The voltage display on the solar booston arrival was 12.5, over the course of two hours it came up to 13.6. I let it run for another hour after that with no further increase. Then I shut off the generator, and the displayed voltage dropped fairly quickly and held at 12.9,

thoughts?

[piper]

called Xantrex customer support today. The guy on the line was really good at "dumbing" things down for me. He said the most likely cause is that the generator isnt putting out the proper frequency, and therefore the inverter/charger isnt accepting it, so its like its not receiving any power at all. The guy on the line said to check the output of the generator with multimeter. I should be able to get my Amps and volts output with a multimeter, multiply this and arrive at watts put out by the generator.

apparently if I apply a load to the generator, it could change the frequency put out..that I didnt know, interesting.

[piper]

Instead of just watching the voltage you need to look at current into the battery. If no current is flowing, no charging will take place no matter how long you leave it running.
Once again, I ask the question of how the power from the generator is getting to a charger which is then connected to the batteries.
An inverter-charger can only charge from generator power if it is connected in some way to the generator. If your external transfer switch isolates the generator from the inverter-charger and there is no other charger on the load side of the switch there is no way the generator can charge the batteries!

just going over what you were saying inetdog., and when I go out there on tuesday I will try the transfer switch in the "normal" position as opposed to "generator". As you think it is isolating the inverter charger from the AC power from the genny while in the "transfer switch in the "generator" position.

The way the transfer switch is labelled, I figured it had to be in "generator" position to use the generator AC power to charge....confusing..

On a positive note, I still see the panels keeping the batt. voltage up enough to run a radio and lightbulb in the camp. (not long, just as a test to see if there is life in the battery) I take that as a sign they arent dead....

still wondering this: is the battery voltage displayed on my solar boost display the same as the true voltage of the batteries in the bank? if not,. why is that?

[FloridaSun]

Yes in (098.jpg) that is a Trace Disconnect/Overcurrent Module. It is in the ON position, and it is wired to the batteries below, and to the inverter/charger to the right.

I found the owner manual online, all 51 pages of it. I was most interested in the battery charging section of the manual, and I made some interesting discoveries:

"The inverter automatically becomes a battery charger whenever AC power is supplied to its AC inputs. There is a 40 sec. time delay from the time the inverter senses that AC is present at its input and when the transfer is made"

Also in the "Three stages of battery charging" section:

Stage one being Bulk Charge. It states: " This stage is initiated when AC is applied to the AC input of the inverter, and it terminated when the batteries reach the BULK CHARGE VOLTAGE. During this stage the Charge LED glows steady orange.


The part that stood out to me was the line about the LED glowing steady orange. There are 4 LED's on the front of the inverter. The only LED I have ever seen lit up is the one labeled "Inverter Mode" I have never seen the Charger LED light up except briefly during the self test when I hit the on/off button on the inverter.

So, as it appears to me, the inverter is not going into "charger mode" WTF! Its seems like the inverter/charger is not sensing the AC power that is being applied to it....dunno, I think ill have to get someone who knows about these things to take a look. But in this small town...it will be hard to find someone who knows alot about this kind of stuff.

Make sure you actually have AC power going in. Yes DO clean ALL connections, polish up those battery terminals. 'Minor' white on terminals can be insulative. What's the battery voltage showing now? You need to get that voltage up ASAP in case those batteries are actually good, worth keeping. Even a 10amp car charger will be better than nothing.
If you do have to replace that inverter/charger you might think about going to a higher voltage 24 or 48 ... which would mean switching your charge controller also.... along with more panels.

[piper]

I'm not familiar with that 2000E inverter either and haven't looked at it's owner manual but there may be a way of checking voltage in, battery voltage, a function like my inverter has. If you have a volt meter then check the voltage at battery terminals and compare.
Hard to read the writing on that pic (098.jpg) but... is that a Trace Disconnect/Overcurrent Module installed between inverter and batteries? Is it in the 'on' position?
You'll get it figured out. If the previous owner did not leave you with owner manuals they are available to download online. You need a copy of everything for future reference, a system schematic drawn up by you and it will all sort out.
Trace DR owner's manual, http://www.solarcellsales.com/techin...30-5DRV3.2.pdf
Like inetdog suggested a clamp on ammeter will give direct results. Not sure which model Trace inverter you have but should be putting out over 50 amps?, 14.6 volts at bulk charge Find the model number, get the specs, see what it's supposed to do. Hooking up a smaller, 10-20amp, AC battery charger would do in a pinch but would take many more hours to reach a full charge.

Yes in (098.jpg) that is a Trace Disconnect/Overcurrent Module. It is in the ON position, and it is wired to the batteries below, and to the inverter/charger to the right.

I found the owner manual online, all 51 pages of it. I was most interested in the battery charging section of the manual, and I made some interesting discoveries:

"The inverter automatically becomes a battery charger whenever AC power is supplied to its AC inputs. There is a 40 sec. time delay from the time the inverter senses that AC is present at its input and when the transfer is made"

Also in the "Three stages of battery charging" section:

Stage one being Bulk Charge. It states: " This stage is initiated when AC is applied to the AC input of the inverter, and it terminated when the batteries reach the BULK CHARGE VOLTAGE. During this stage the Charge LED glows steady orange.


The part that stood out to me was the line about the LED glowing steady orange. There are 4 LED's on the front of the inverter. The only LED I have ever seen lit up is the one labeled "Inverter Mode" I have never seen the Charger LED light up except briefly during the self test when I hit the on/off button on the inverter.

So, as it appears to me, the inverter is not going into "charger mode" WTF! Its seems like the inverter/charger is not sensing the AC power that is being applied to it....dunno, I think ill have to get someone who knows about these things to take a look. But in this small town...it will be hard to find someone who knows alot about this kind of stuff.

[piper]

I don't know where/how the solar boost is wired, but if it is only between the panels and the batteries, it will not measure the charging current coming from the Trace, just the current coming from the panels. The ideal thing to do is get a clamp-on ammeter that specifically measures DC current through the clamp. (This will probably cost somewhere around $80 or up, but will be a very useful tool to have down the road too.) Most clamp-on ammeters will only measure DC current through the test leads, and that would require disconnecting one of the battery wires. I do not recommend you do that at this stage of your education.

Another way to get a very rough idea of whether the batteries are charging is to put the voltmeter leads one at each end of the wire between the Trace and one of the battery posts. The wire will act as a crude shunt and by measuring the (hopefully small) voltage between the leads you can at least get an idea of which way the current is flowing.
If you put the + lead at the + on the Trace and the - lead at the - post of the battery, then if you read a positive voltage the battery is being charged. If you read a negative voltage, the Trace is pulling current from the batteries. If you read nothing at all, then either the setup is wrong or the batteries are not being charged.
Do NOT try to do this with the multimeter on an amps setting!

Can you come up with a wiring diagram rather than just a photo? From the picture it looks like the wire from the generator is going directly into the transfer switch box rather than directly to the Trace, so the details will all depend on how the inside of the transfer switch box is wired. For a simple installation, there would be no need for a separate transfer switch since that function would be provided by the Trace itself. That means that we really need to know how the transfer switch is wired!

The Solar boost is wired between the panels and the batteries. I am confident I can pull of your second suggestion:

"If you put the + lead at the + on the Trace and the - lead at the - post of the battery, then if you read a positive voltage the battery is being charged. If you read a negative voltage, the Trace is pulling current from the batteries. If you read nothing at all, then either the setup is wrong or the batteries are not being charged.
Do NOT try to do this with the multimeter on an amps setting!"

Thanks for that tip. I am heading out there on Monday or Tuesday for some snowshoeing with the dog...shes is driving me crazy, I need to tire her out! While Im out there ill see what I can do about getting a wiring diagram. I know it is difficult to see whats going on from the pics I posted.

I have already disconnected one of the batteries thinking I would be able to test its worth in a warm basement...It required some cleaning of the +ve and -ve terminals. It had minor white corrosive builup on the posts. As do all of the batteries. Im thinking that its probably not a bad idea to clean up all the posts next time im out.

[FloridaSun]

Not 100% sure if the batteries are still good...They do charge with the solar panel though, I take that as a good sign. Transfer switch wired with a plug, which I plug into the generator.
I see fuses on the transfer switch, one for "generator" one for "normal" (solar) both fuses were intact last time I was out.
I have a voltmeter yes.
Now correct me if this is a poor assumption. I assume that the voltage reading on my solar boost 2000E display is the voltage of the batteries themselves. (If I took a voltmeter, I assume I would get the same reading from the battery terminals as the display shows.)

How many minutes after should I check the battery terminal voltage? depending on your answer to the above assumption I made. If it is a correct assumption then I can just use my display. If not I can use the voltmeter, either way, should I see a major charge in the voltage after a few minutes?

Thanks for understanding that this isnt easy...Im trying to wrap my head around the whole system. With time I hope to understand my system enough to know what is normal, and what is not right.

I'm not familiar with that 2000E inverter either and haven't looked at it's owner manual but there may be a way of checking voltage in, battery voltage, a function like my inverter has. If you have a volt meter then check the voltage at battery terminals and compare.
Hard to read the writing on that pic (098.jpg) but... is that a Trace Disconnect/Overcurrent Module installed between inverter and batteries? Is it in the 'on' position?
You'll get it figured out. If the previous owner did not leave you with owner manuals they are available to download online. You need a copy of everything for future reference, a system schematic drawn up by you and it will all sort out.
Trace DR owner's manual, http://www.solarcellsales.com/techin...30-5DRV3.2.pdf
Like inetdog suggested a clamp on ammeter will give direct results. Not sure which model Trace inverter you have but should be putting out over 50 amps?, 14.6 volts at bulk charge Find the model number, get the specs, see what it's supposed to do. Hooking up a smaller, 10-20amp, AC battery charger would do in a pinch but would take many more hours to reach a full charge.

[inetdog]

Now when you say monitor the current, I would do this exactly how. Im sure it is rather simple. Would I do that by simply monitoring this on my solar boost 2000E display? I have the option to monitor battery voltage, solar panel current, and output charge current.

Would I keep an eye on the output charge current? or its it something that has to be done with a multimeter?

I don't know where/how the solar boost is wired, but if it is only between the panels and the batteries, it will not measure the charging current coming from the Trace, just the current coming from the panels. The ideal thing to do is get a clamp-on ammeter that specifically measures DC current through the clamp. (This will probably cost somewhere around $80 or up, but will be a very useful tool to have down the road too.) Most clamp-on ammeters will only measure DC current through the test leads, and that would require disconnecting one of the battery wires. I do not recommend you do that at this stage of your education.

Another way to get a very rough idea of whether the batteries are charging is to put the voltmeter leads one at each end of the wire between the Trace and one of the battery posts. The wire will act as a crude shunt and by measuring the (hopefully small) voltage between the leads you can at least get an idea of which way the current is flowing.
If you put the + lead at the + on the Trace and the - lead at the - post of the battery, then if you read a positive voltage the battery is being charged. If you read a negative voltage, the Trace is pulling current from the batteries. If you read nothing at all, then either the setup is wrong or the batteries are not being charged.
Do NOT try to do this with the multimeter on an amps setting!

Can you come up with a wiring diagram rather than just a photo? From the picture it looks like the wire from the generator is going directly into the transfer switch box rather than directly to the Trace, so the details will all depend on how the inside of the transfer switch box is wired. For a simple installation, there would be no need for a separate transfer switch since that function would be provided by the Trace itself. That means that we really need to know how the transfer switch is wired!

[piper]

Did you determine the batteries are still useful?
Follow the wiring. Is the transfer switch hard wired to the generator or is it just plugged into an outlet... or not plugged in? Did the original installation include battery fusing that may have blown?
Do you own a volt meter? You can check terminal voltage before and after generator is started in minutes.
Download the Trace DR owner's manual, make sure the settings are correct.

haha, don't give up. Understand your system and what it's doing. May take time but it will save much headache in the future.
Be safe. If you really feel too freaked to deal with it get some local, experienced help.

Not 100% sure if the batteries are still good...They do charge with the solar panel though, I take that as a good sign. Transfer switch wired with a plug, which I plug into the generator.
I see fuses on the transfer switch, one for "generator" one for "normal" (solar) both fuses were intact last time I was out.
I have a voltmeter yes.
Now correct me if this is a poor assumption. I assume that the voltage reading on my solar boost 2000E display is the voltage of the batteries themselves. (If I took a voltmeter, I assume I would get the same reading from the battery terminals as the display shows.)

How many minutes after should I check the battery terminal voltage? depending on your answer to the above assumption I made. If it is a correct assumption then I can just use my display. If not I can use the voltmeter, either way, should I see a major charge in the voltage after a few minutes?

Thanks for understanding that this isnt easy...Im trying to wrap my head around the whole system. With time I hope to understand my system enough to know what is normal, and what is not right.

[piper]

Instead of just watching the voltage you need to look at current into the battery. If no current is flowing, no charging will take place no matter how long you leave it running.
Once again, I ask the question of how the power from the generator is getting to a charger which is then connected to the batteries.
An inverter-charger can only charge from generator power if it is connected in some way to the generator. If your external transfer switch isolates the generator from the inverter-charger and there is no other charger on the load side of the switch there is no way the generator can charge the batteries!

If you take a look at the picture of the entire setup, you can see that the inverter/charger is connected to the generator via the black cable which is plugged into the generator. That cable runs to the transfer switch, which is wired to the inverter/charger and down to the batteries.

As far as voltage, I thought this was a way to at the very least see if charging is taking place. When using the sun this change in voltage occurs rather quickly.

Now when you say monitor the current, I would do this exactly how. Im sure it is rather simple. Would I do that by simply monitoring this on my solar boost 2000E display? I have the option to monitor battery voltage, solar panel current, and output charge current.

Would I keep an eye on the output charge current? or its it something that has to be done with a multimeter?

Finally, I would like to apologize for my ineptitude on these topics. I like to think Im fairly intelligent, I have education under my belt, but my areas of expertise is health care. This solar/electrical stuff is interesting though.

[inetdog]

could it be that I simply havent let the generator run long enough?? I only let it run for max 1 hour with not change in voltage..and simply gave up. perhaps it needs more time to make up for the amount amount of bulk charging it has to accomplish??

For a quick reality check, get an inexpensive AC battery charger (the kind you need to manually supervise since it does not have all of the 3 stage charging bells and whistles), plug it into the generator or the house wiring and connect it to the battery. See if that does anything for them.

To get the Trace to charge the batteries off the generator, the generator output has to be run to the grid/generator AC input of the Trace rather than using an external transfer switch.

[FloridaSun]

could it be that I simply havent let the generator run long enough?? I only let it run for max 1 hour with not change in voltage..and simply gave up. perhaps it needs more time to make up for the amount amount of bulk charging it has to accomplish??

Did you determine the batteries are still useful?
Follow the wiring. Is the transfer switch hard wired to the generator or is it just plugged into an outlet... or not plugged in? Did the original installation include battery fusing that may have blown?
Do you own a volt meter? You can check terminal voltage before and after generator is started in minutes.
Download the Trace DR owner's manual, make sure the settings are correct.

haha, don't give up. Understand your system and what it's doing. May take time but it will save much headache in the future.
Be safe. If you really feel too freaked to deal with it get some local, experienced help.

[inetdog]

could it be that I simply havent let the generator run long enough?? I only let it run for max 1 hour with not change in voltage..and simply gave up. perhaps it needs more time to make up for the amount amount of bulk charging it has to accomplish??

Instead of just watching the voltage you need to look at current into the battery. If no current is flowing, no charging will take place no matter how long you leave it running.
Once again, I ask the question of how the power from the generator is getting to a charger which is then connected to the batteries.
An inverter-charger can only charge from generator power if it is connected in some way to the generator. If your external transfer switch isolates the generator from the inverter-charger and there is no other charger on the load side of the switch there is no way the generator can charge the batteries!