Build Design On My First Off Grid System 13KwH

[Sunking]

you can not compare living on a stand alone system with the grid. With the grid ( I will stand corrected here) you have approx 10 to 15 KVA of power avail at any time,( unless the grid is down).

Actually quite a bit more than that. A 200 amp service is capable of 48 Kva. But your point is valid.

[Bala]

you can not compare living on a stand alone system with the grid. With the grid ( I will stand corrected here) you have approx 10 to 15 KVA of power avail at any time,( unless the grid is down). I live on stand alone, I have a reasonable size system, I have about 3 kva available sometimes and for varying length of time, when its nice and sunny and the batteries are charged. but I dont have 3kva continuous, in fact I probably never even use a 3kva surge,. At night I dont have it avail, or when its cloudy, not if i want my batteries to last. So when you want to use the washing machine you do it during the day when its sunny or at night on the
genset. Think about when you use your 13 kwh a day and if you are not at home all day each day to use the sun you will need most of that 13kwh at night. you
just can not compare stand alone to grid. Stand alone is a life style and a pain to live with.

[vinniethePVtech]

Vinny if you discharge 70% DOD they will not last but a year or two if even that long. If you only DOD 10 to 20% daily then it is POSSIBLE to get 7 to 10 years out of them at best.

I think you and I meant the same thing, apparently I worded it wrong.

Mike has about $80,000 tied up in his system which I think is only about 5 to 6 years into it that only generates about 5 to 7 Kwh per day in Southern California. He is an aerospace engineer, built the system himself. So what makes you think you can build a system with 3 times the capacity at 1/4th the cost per Kwh.

CHINESE PV?

[Sunking]

I thought you were recommending the surrette batteries because of the 10 year warranty? I was reading up on owners of those batteries. If the D.O.D charging at 70% of capacity roughly 15years.

Vinny if you discharge 70% DOD they will not last but a year or two if even that long. If you only DOD 10 to 20% daily then it is POSSIBLE to get 7 to 10 years out of them at best.

Guy honestly you need to stop and think things through or you are heading for disaster. Right now you do not even know the right questions to ask or understand the answers you are getting.

Listen to Mike and another user named 894Tom.

Mike has about $80,000 tied up in his system which I think is only about 5 to 6 years into it that only generates about 5 to 7 Kwh per day in Southern California. He is an aerospace engineer, built the system himself. So what makes you think you can build a system with 3 times the capacity at 1/4th the cost per Kwh.

I am an EE that has built Stand Alone System for about 10 years on commercial properties with over 33 years of electrical design experience. Granted solar is a very small portion of my business, less than 5% but I have over 150 battery systems under my belt, and I am telling you are heading for big trouble.

If you are really in California, use your neighbors money and build a grid tied system.

OK that is my 2-cents and done with this thread.

Good Luck

[vinniethePVtech]

That paragraph right there convinces me that you are not really a solar contractor. You may be a contractor in the solar industry but you are not a player. Sounds to me like you are a contractor who buys from someplace like wholesale solar but more of a retail customer than a wholesale one. The prices you are quoting are retail.
.

I have to list retail. Then tax. Then contractor discount is 10% off. A contrator would be stupid to estimate at discounted quote, it becomes normal to estimate at retail price. I do not get dealer prices at 30% off, I need a state dealers/sales license to do that, and an audit every year, I prefer not to get audited every year.Until the economy gets betterth is the way to do it. The most I get is 10% off. Very common in the construction industry.
I never said I was a big player, how ever I do play.

Class B contrcator is a general B contractor
C46 is solar
C10 is electrical

Right now I'm studying NABCEP and C10.
My business is a General B

[Naptown]

I can purchase all components with tax included (I will round up) $63,000. Now if I was to use high efficiency panels such as sunpower, or schott which are around $1000 per panel pre tax I'm looking at upwards cost of $92,000 system cost assumed. Cost of suntech PV $490 per panel after tax. sunpower or schott $1100 per panel after tax per panel.

.

That paragraph right there convinces me that you are not really a solar contractor. You may be a contractor in the solar industry but you are not a player. Sounds to me like you are a contractor who buys from someplace like wholesale solar but more of a retail customer than a wholesale one. The prices you are quoting are retail.
The pricing you are quoting are higher than even the Sanyo Bifacial modules which are the most expensive on the market.

[vinniethePVtech]

Vinny don't be a fool. You are not factoring in replacing the batteries every 5 years of $15,000, maintenance, replacenments, and your huge loss in ROI

I thought you were recommending the surrette batteries because of the 10 year warranty? I was reading up on owners of those batteries. If the D.O.D charging at 70% of capacity roughly 15years. If I take it easy on the batteries. shut down the solar during the winter durig heavy load, less charging I could probably get the batteries to last 18 years, as well if I shut down the solar and tarp off during the winter I could probably squeeze 5 more years out of the life of the solar.

Like you are saying though this is all maintenance.

I have considered grid tied with a back up generator. My problem with grid tied, and this has happened. When the california rolling black outs come through a grid tied system means nothing. With a generator of 1200watts interconnected to the main panel the inverter can atleast stay active to make power for the home.

[Sunking]

Vinny don't be a fool. You are not factoring in replacing the batteries every 5 years of $15,000, maintenance, replacenments, and your huge loss in ROI. I can invest $60,00 today, it will pay my utility bills for 20 years, and at the end of 20 years cash it it out for a couple hundred thousand and go on permanent vacation. You will have nothing but huge losses.

[vinniethePVtech]

Vinny bottom line you just chose to pay around 10 times more for electricity for the rest of your life, well maybe 5 to 8 in California. You are not screwing the electric company.

Not really here's the break down. Cost in PV atleast for chinese PV, makes off grid solar lower than GRID Parody. I've done the research. Without inflation,this is the calculated cost that a californian with an 1130sq/ft home pays. I calculated the first 10 years so the 10th year becomes average annual cost for 20 years, basic averaging.

That last calculation to your bottom right is what I would pay over the course of 20 years. $76,026.50 is assumed, this is without inflation whihc as national debt grows so does the cost of a dollar. So what is $76,026.50 now will look like $78,307.30 is is assumed inflation in 20 years rises 3%.

I can purchase all components with tax included (I will round up) $63,000. Now if I was to use high efficiency panels such as sunpower, or schott which are around $1000 per panel pre tax I'm looking at upwards cost of $92,000 system cost assumed. Cost of suntech PV $490 per panel after tax. sunpower or schott $1100 per panel after tax per panel.

Lets do teh break down.

20 year cost of utility $78,307.30
Cost of Off Grid solar $63,000.00
Cost of assumed labor $7800.00

SAVINGS OF $7507.30, this is assumed I could save $10,000 on labor

Then we have batteries. Every one of those batteries is a company owned expense I would take the purchase price write off reciept VS. system depreciation.
Take the initial 5 year system depreciation write down.

System savings after first year of depreciation and write offs. $18,000 assumed.

System cost ($45,000) assumed

Now if i bought the system with high efficiency PV after all write offs and depreciation it would be pointless as it would be right at the cost of grid parody.
I've researched for months its very doable and lower than grid price per watt. Its a win, win. even if I have to replace teh surrette batteries after the 11th year, I write them off.

From a business perspective its smart. Total cost in natural gas/propane use for winter months in 20 years would be $3800 for natural gas.

Now don't get me wrong. I have considered grid tied with a back up generator. So when grid goes down my solar would still make power.

[russ]

Your best bet is a small or modest grid-tied system, where you only generate 30-90% of your needs, then PG&E will be happy to let you use their grid as a storage battery. You will save a lot (when factoring in the planned rate hikes)

That I agree with 100%. No fun in screwing the utility when it doesn't hurt them even a little bit and costs you big bucks to do so.

[Mike90250]

4) PG&E could care less if you disconnect - in 1000 years they would not see it on their balance sheet.

No, but you will get a "monthly disconnect fee" for the privilege of having power in front of your house. I forget what they call it, but you will NOT escape the PG&E beast.

Your best bet is a small or modest grid-tied system, where you only generate 30-90% of your needs, then PG&E will be happy to let you use their grid as a storage battery. You will save a lot (when factoring in the planned rate hikes)

[Sunking]

Vinny bottom line you just chose to pay around 10 times more for electricity for the rest of your life, well maybe 5 to 8 in California. You are not screwing the electric company.

[russ]

The tax write off - you may be able to write off the percent of your home that is a dedicated home office. Not being a tax accountant I can easily be wrong but I expect the IRS would be looking at what percentage the office might actually use.

This write off (home office) is a favorite of the IRS to catch people with - not a good place to cheat.

[russ]

Quit with the blather - you claim to be the 'PV tech' and seem to know amazingly little about that or contracting.

1) I had a General Contractors license in North Carolina for many years

2) Mike went off grid because it was going to cost a fortune to bring power to his home from the main line - PV was the lesser of evils.

3) The permit and inspections are to insure all is done correctly - even within your own home - thinking of future owners more than the present occupant. If you don't know this you are not a licensed general contractor.

4) PG&E could care less if you disconnect - in 1000 years they would not see it on their balance sheet.

5) You are constantly bombarding the community with blather about things where you seem to have overheard someone talking. You don't know contracting, you don't know PV and on and on.

[vinniethePVtech]

You still need building permits, electrical inspections and all or else you can end up in deep soup.

So are you a contractor? Have you ever been red flagged, doing work within your own home?
Inspectors are only in place as a third party entity to verify that the work between customer and contractor is legitimate. Also so an assessor can evaluate property for taxes. Has nothing to do with PG&E. Now if I was to steal power from PG&E thats a whole different problem. If I chose to disconnect myself from the grid, that's my concern

I would never build solar on any one else's home without permits, my insurance wouldn't allow it and I could be sued.

If you trust your engineer, or your own methods of building in your own home then do it.

You just seem to bland and boring for me RUSS, add a little excitement to your life.
Stop being a hypocrite, your own moderation Mike is going off grid, and you don't seem to be saying a whole lot of crap about what he wants for his home?

You are pursuing foolishness so you can be green

You can write off a solar system, you can't write off electrical bills. Its more than going green, its the luxury of control, write offs, and I think I said a luxury. Proving for a home office what is spent for electrical bills almost becomes a moot argument when audited.