Powerwall 2 install.

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  • JSchnee21
    Solar Fanatic
    • May 2017
    • 522

    #16
    Wow, even at $5,320 (after rebates and tax credit) that's a great price! If the Panasonic lithium cells in the PowerWalls last anywhere near as long as the ones in Tesla cars, they seem to be surprisingly robust. Unlike the ones in my laptop and iPhone!

    For comparison, when spec'ing a commercial UPS system from APC for example:
    APC is a full service provider of Data Center Infrastructure Management (DCIM) Software, Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS), Racks and Accessories, Power Distribution, Security and Environmental Monitoring, Services, Prefabricated Data Center Modules, Cooling, Surge Protection and Power Conditioning, Audio-Video Solutions, Networking and Cable Solutions


    A unit's load capacity is generally spec'ed by it's Volt-Amp capacity -- For example, 20,000 VA = 240V * 83 Amps assuming a power factor of 1, and no reactive loads (aka motors). Often times the actual kW rating (depending on the MFG) will be a lot less as they play games with the power factor.

    Generally you would for 60-80% (or less) to provide for growth and to prevent overload alarms during operation. If the UPS cannot handle the instantaneous load (of all your equipment turning on for example) it will drop the load,

    Based on your actual load (for example my house runs about 1kW nominal, 6kW with AC running, and 8-9kW peak with AC, Microwave, Keurig, etc. From your observed loads you can estimate the maximal carrying and inrush currents that are needed to support these loads for comparison to the output specs of the UPS system. Generally there is a diversity calculation to estimate and allow for the fact that the UPS is generally not sized for 100% of the output wiring capacity. But in a home, the AC is the primary concern. Mine, for example, (older 4 ton) draws ~30amps @ 240 continuously, and has an inrush of 60-80 amps.

    From there, once you have identified the kVA of the UPS, you can then scale the Amp-hours of the batteries to lengthen the kWh of the solution. Most UPS vendors have a modelling tool for this (see link above) where you supply the average continuous load in Watts, and based on the number of strings of batteries, it will tell you the run time.

    I haven't tried to get technical punchouts for the Tesla PowerWalls, but they should be readily available. But, unless the PowerWall DC to AC inverter can put out 100amps or more at 240, I would seriously consider moving the circuit breaker for the HVAC condenser into a non-UPS panel. Is this new construction? Or are you setting this up in your basement or garage? That's a lot of wall space in your diagram.

    Do you have any consumption data for your home? I would start by metering it and looking at the current/power specs for your HVAC. For comparison purposes, with the HVAC, I'm running an average of ~55 kWh per day with peaks up to 76kWh. So, I'd have to drop the HVAC from the equation to get any meaningful runtime from a 37kWh pack.

    I agree the solar PV array is rather small, but remember, this is not an off-grid solution. Realistically, the PV array would never be able to charge the battery packs if they were discharged by more than 15-20% or so.

    -Jonathan

    Comment

    • JSchnee21
      Solar Fanatic
      • May 2017
      • 522

      #17
      Here are some of the specs:




      Looks like 5.8kVA max continuous per unit. So that's 24amps @ 240VAC per unit. Which given 13.5kWh would be ~139 min at 100% load. If two units are perfectly parallel, that would be 48 amps continuous @ 240 VAC for 139min.

      Overload capacity, per unit appears to be 7.2kVA for 10s. So that's 30amps, per unit (60amps max theoretical for two) for 10s. If you have a newer, more energy efficient AC with multiple stages and a DC blower it MIGHT start. But, I highly doubt such a system design would pass permitting and inspection. You'd either need to automatically load shed the AC, or scale up with more PowerWall units.

      When I was playing with their website, it appeared that you could parallel 3, 4, 5 units, etc. If you really want to carry your entire 200amp panel with your AC, I would expect that you would need at least 3, perhaps 4 units. AKA 17.4kVA (3*5.8) or 23.2kVA (4*5.8) in the same way as you would for a whole house generator. If you automatically shed your AC, then two are probably sufficient depending on your desired load and runtime.

      Comment

      • JSchnee21
        Solar Fanatic
        • May 2017
        • 522

        #18
        So, given that two units cost $5,320 (not sure how much more 3 or 4 units would cost depending on the limits of the rebate). Given your potential savings from TOU load shifting, any thoughts on the break even period? Ideally it would be less than 10yrs given the limited warranty (and lifetime) of batteries.

        But, solely as a backup power solution (aka no ROI needed), it's actually very compelling with the rebates. A decent ~22kVA generator is $8-10k plus installation (aka $15-20k installed) AND much more expensive to run on natural gas. When Sandy hit here in NJ, my neighbors with whole house natural gas generators were looking at a $200-300 per day in natural gas bills.

        I'm not aware of any such PoCo rebates for storage here in NJ.

        Comment

        • sensij
          Solar Fanatic
          • Sep 2014
          • 5074

          #19
          Originally posted by JSchnee21

          I agree the solar PV array is rather small, but remember, this is not an off-grid solution. Realistically, the PV array would never be able to charge the battery packs if they were discharged by more than 15-20% or so.

          -Jonathan
          A 7.4 kW PV system is larger than average and looks like plenty to me. My 8.1 kW system is putting out 48 kWh daily this time of year, so the OP should be fine supporting a 27 kWh battery on most moderately clear days.

          The powerwall 2 is rated for 5 kW continuous, 7 kW peak. Two of them should be double that, if there are no other limiting components.

          The SGIP requires an average of 100% discharge weekly, so let's use 4 kWh daily.. In SDG&E territory, let's assume DR-SES rates. That means that the battery would charge during semi-peak and discharge during peak. The differential is 0.25/kWh, and only applies during weekdays in summer. Let's call it 132 days.

          If just 4 kWh are cycled at 90% efficiency, that is worth $118 per year. If all 27 kWh are cycled, it would be worth $832 per year.

          If the two powerwalls alone cost $5320, there are other storage specific costs to consider (Storedge inverter is $1k more than regular inverter, if that is what was used). Simple payback under 10 years looks possible.

          Last edited by sensij; 07-15-2017, 10:23 AM.
          CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

          Comment

          • sriram97
            Junior Member
            • Jul 2016
            • 18

            #20
            Thanks guys yes this is an awesome deal afaict. Enphase microinverters for each panel on the roof and no standalone inverter in the garage other than the one inside each powerwall. Brand new construction. Like you said think I have enough PV capacity and A/Cs run only for a short period every year. We get so much high quality sunshine here on the southern roof that most of my neighbors have no electric bills with 3.5 kW systems. While I've worked out the pv system break even approximately (we are new to the area and tou plans and simply don't have enough consumption history) I've not thought through the break even period for the battery yet.


            I'll keep you posted on actuals.

            Another big convenience is that the powerwall app which is built into the Tesla app should give need me continuous useful analytics.

            Comment

            • sriram97
              Junior Member
              • Jul 2016
              • 18

              #21
              Don't know what you mean by Tesla practices unless you are talking about solar city who were not part of this job in any way. I do own a model S and it's the best car ive driven. Teslas products are highly innovative and I think their energy storage products will create a new market segment. The cars the one thing whose consumption I left out if ask the calculations as there's a free super charger 10 minutes away

              Comment

              • sriram97
                Junior Member
                • Jul 2016
                • 18

                #22
                Here is a link to the units specs.




                Originally posted by max2k

                Max load should be somewhere in the specs- how else did they pull permit without supplying those details? For one it would define size of the breaker ... Don't get me wrong, I wish this project complete success despite my reservations against Tesla practices in general, I'm just trying to paint more realistic picture.

                Comment

                • max2k
                  Junior Member
                  • May 2015
                  • 819

                  #23
                  Originally posted by sensij

                  ... In SDG&E territory, let's assume DR-SES rates. That means that the battery would charge during semi-peak and discharge during peak. The differential is 0.25/kWh, and only applies during weekdays in summer. Let's call it 132 days.

                  ...
                  I think some of your assumptions are off - how system would charge battery in semi-peak period if it is defined as:

                  Summer Semi-Peak 6 a.m. 11 a.m. and 6 p.m. 10 p.m. Monday through Friday, excluding Holidays

                  I don't recall a lot of PV production in those time frames. Unless of course those PowerWalls can simply be charged off the grid itself in off peak which would probably be cheaper than PV energy.
                  Last edited by max2k; 07-15-2017, 12:27 PM.

                  Comment

                  • max2k
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2015
                    • 819

                    #24
                    Originally posted by sriram97
                    ... there's a free super charger 10 minutes away
                    those practices for one as nothing is truly free, ever. Someone pays for the supercharger station and I wouldn't mind if Tesla charged owners of their cars up front for the life of charging if they wished so but they went beyond that and trying to make it 'free' at the expense of business owners at the plaza where Tesla owners go shopping. Now that have me objecting as those owners would need to channel the charges down to the rest of the public. I think we have enough taxes from the government to have private company impose their own on top of that. That's besides various subsidies they're getting from the government as well. I fully admit their products are innovative but somehow leave bad after taste and thought 'scam' crosses my mind too often when it comes to those enterprises.

                    Comment

                    • max2k
                      Junior Member
                      • May 2015
                      • 819

                      #25
                      Thank you, they have interesting component there called 'Energy Gateway' which I assume would be the 'brain' of the whole setup- did you get that installed as well and included in the cost above?

                      How much did PV part of the system cost for 7.4kW array? I understand the inverter is built in into PowerWall so that must have provided some savings on PV side of things.

                      Comment

                      • sensij
                        Solar Fanatic
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 5074

                        #26
                        Originally posted by max2k

                        Thank you, they have interesting component there called 'Energy Gateway' which I assume would be the 'brain' of the whole setup- did you get that installed as well and included in the cost above?

                        How much did PV part of the system cost for 7.4kW array? I understand the inverter is built in into PowerWall so that must have provided some savings on PV side of things.
                        op used microinverters and AC coupled the battery, so no coordination between PV and the battery is required for load shifting. With respect to rates, sgip requires 75% of the charge come from pv, so it looks like 25% could come from the grid overnight at the lowest rates.

                        In San Diego, op would qualify for an EV plan with 12-6 pm peak all 7 days of the week, maybe a better fit for the production profile. In a few months, non-grandfathered plans will have a later peak period (and more semi-peak), so the economics get a little better.
                        Last edited by sensij; 07-15-2017, 01:18 PM.
                        CS6P-260P/SE3000 - http://tiny.cc/ed5ozx

                        Comment

                        • sriram97
                          Junior Member
                          • Jul 2016
                          • 18

                          #27
                          Yes in fact it is priced into the car. Recently they started unbundling this as a separate charge for new owners.

                          Totally agree nothing is free. I'm my case I'm simply getting something that I've paid for and not using sufficiently lol

                          Also agree with the comment regarding taxes. I live in Cali you pay for the privilege ?

                          Originally posted by max2k

                          those practices for one as nothing is truly free, ever. Someone pays for the supercharger station and I wouldn't mind if Tesla charged owners of their cars up front for the life of charging if they wished so but they went beyond that and trying to make it 'free' at the expense of business owners at the plaza where Tesla owners go shopping. Now that have me objecting as those owners would need to channel the charges down to the rest of the public. I think we have enough taxes from the government to have private company impose their own on top of that. That's besides various subsidies they're getting from the government as well. I fully admit their products are innovative but somehow leave bad after taste and thought 'scam' crosses my mind too often when it comes to those enterprises.

                          Comment

                          • sriram97
                            Junior Member
                            • Jul 2016
                            • 18

                            #28
                            Yes that's right one enphase micro inverter per panel. PV system was 3.2 per watt approx

                            The gateway is shipped with the battery. It has all the software and firmware and power management logic connects to your home network and to Tesla updates itself with the latest software and sends analytics to you and diags to Tesla.


                            Originally posted by max2k

                            Thank you, they have interesting component there called 'Energy Gateway' which I assume would be the 'brain' of the whole setup- did you get that installed as well and included in the cost above?

                            How much did PV part of the system cost for 7.4kW array? I understand the inverter is built in into PowerWall so that must have provided some savings on PV side of things.

                            Comment

                            • Sunking
                              Solar Fanatic
                              • Feb 2010
                              • 23301

                              #29
                              Originally posted by sriram97
                              The cost of the install was 17k just for the 2 powerwall installs. State of California sgip rebate was 9400 and with the federal credit of 30% the total out of.pocket is 17k - 5.1k - 9.4k = 2.5k.
                              Why do I have to pay for it?

                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment

                              • cebury
                                Solar Fanatic
                                • Sep 2011
                                • 646

                                #30
                                Originally posted by max2k

                                Unless of course those PowerWalls can simply be charged off the grid itself in off peak which would probably be cheaper than PV energy.
                                You got it, which is why the calculated differential was .25/kwh between peak and semipeak.


                                So it takes all those subsidies to approach a 10 year simple payoff, IF the battery performance doesnt degrade. I guess IF poco peak vs off peak rate differentials increased, it could help. But in PGE territory their resi plans have collapsed the TOU period rates down much closer, ie flatter, making peak shaving a much harder payoff. And likewise on tiered plans, with the exception for the 400% tier they have a .20kwhr diff between t1 and top tier.

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