off grid wind and solar 4000 square feet house

[histeel]

Hello all Thinking of joining the off grid bunch with the purchase of a solar active home in the mountains. From what i have seen the home is solar active 4000 square feet windows to the south,it was a 4.5 on the solar scale. solar water heat for the floors along with propane boiler zone floor heat. wood and gas stoves through out for heat. The only electric appliances are Refrigerator washer and propane dryer, dishwasher. The solar arrays are 3 solarex arrays consisting of 8 panels each and one array of Astropower panels with 6 panels. There are 2 wind turbines not sure of wattage. This is feed to a Trace power inverter with DC overcurrent module,and 2 Blue sky tracking units. all this ties in with a 6.0 kv onan gen set running on propane. Batteries were 16 6 volt not sure what voltage they were wired for.The only concern so far is i am not sure there is enough battery power to run the complex the main home is large but there is a second home over the garage for guest. System is very nice and properly installed just have a few questions before we hire someone to do a full inspection. House was built around 2000 there is a long run from inverter to main home and not sure how up todate the Trace components are.

[Mike90250]

...... Batteries were 16 6 volt not sure what voltage they were wired for.......

What time of day did you measure 16.6V ?

Sadly, I expect the batteries are toast. 16.6 is abnormally high for a 12V system. and deadly low for a 24V system.

If you can get model numbers, we can figure out what the voltage is supposed to be. I'd say 24v. And we'd need numbers for the panels in the PV array, it's not the quantity of panels, it's the wattage x number of panels. 168W panel x 14 = 2352 watt of array, expected to produce 80% of nameplate = 1881.6 expected watts for 20 min at solar noon. Less power for 3 hrs before and 3 hr after. Take a photo of the backside label and zoom in to read the #s

[sdold]

Sounds like 16 ea. 6V batteries.

[histeel]

I have not checked voltage on batteries there are 16. 6 volt bats. the astro panels are 120 watt The solarex panels are probably 100 watt cant tell i will post a pic. Wind turbines will need a new tower i am looking into a crankup tilt over, but havent looked into what it will take for wind load. Thanks for the help theres a lot to work on here.

[histeel]

Here is a pic of the astro panels left solarex right

[Sunking]

OK whoever set this solar system up did a really poor job and does not understand the technology or how to use it. It is a 24 volt system, you can pick that up from the two charge controllers running at 28 volts. That and that charger model is either 12 or 24 volt, so take your pick, and either pick is the wrong voltage.

Several huge mistakes were made.

1. Wrong system voltage was selected by the simple fact it has to use 2 charge controllers. It should be 48 volts which would have saved a lot of money.
2. Uses 16 6-Volt Golf Cart batteries wired 4S4P for a 24 volt 800 AH battery. Parallel batteries should never ever be used. Just based on battery capacity they should have used 48 volt @ 400 AH. Parallel batteries significantly shortens battery life.
3. Used Low Voltage Battery Panels. They cost 2 to 6 times more than Grid Tied Panels. Not only do they cost more, but requires a lot more material to use them.
4. A mix of incompatible solar panels.
5. Wind Turds being a complete waste of money.

As a potential buyer, I would run away from this, or use it as leverage. You can leverage the deal discounting the solar system needs replaced and upgraded.

[littleharbor]

This is an old system I'm guessing from the vintage panels and Trace equipment. Fewer choices back then, although there were 48 volt inverters then.

[histeel]

Thank you for the reply. I did not think the system as installed would sustain the house. was unclear of the different sized panels, and batteries were a no brainer they would be replaced.I will have to do a little research on the grid tie panels. An upgrade is a must but all infrastructure is in place will have to keep that in mind if we get to negotiations. Panels and inverter upgrade would be costly. Hard to determine proper sized system without any info on energy consumption of this home.

[J.P.M.]

Thank you for the reply. I did not think the system as installed would sustain the house. was unclear of the different sized panels, and batteries were a no brainer they would be replaced.I will have to do a little research on the grid tie panels. An upgrade is a must but all infrastructure is in place will have to keep that in mind if we get to negotiations. Panels and inverter upgrade would be costly. Hard to determine proper sized system without any info on energy consumption of this home.

Get prior use, but know that your usage and usage patterns will likely be quite different, maybe very different. After you get your more recent use, it will then be possible to draw up a set of goals and actions to achieve those goals. Without your use, you're throwing darts blindfolded.

[Sunking]

Without your use, you're throwing darts blindfolded.

Yep sitting in a chair with his feet up in the air between him and his target.

[peakbagger]

Unless you plan to be become the expert on the system you may want to reconsider the purchase. There just aren't that many true solar pros around and even they are not forever. Over the years I have run into several cases of orphaned off grid systems. The owner usually designed and built it themselves and probably could keep things running and do diagnosis but inevitably once they are out of the picture due to divorce, sick of living with it, death ETC, the next owner ends us having to completely reconfigure the system or in some cases quickly reselling. If the components were new in 2000 (they may have come from older systems as PV was quite expensive in 2000) then you are looking at darn close to 20 year old electronics. You also raise a big issue when you mention small wind turbines. Many of those smaller older wind turbines are orphans with no parts availability and most likely are moving kinetic structures rather than really contributing to any real power generation. In general assume you are going to have to substantially replace and upgrade almost from scratch and budget lots of propane and possibly a new generator as a 17 year old generator is well into the replace at any time mode.

A general observation is in my area, Northern New England many of the folks most attracted to off gird living tend to be the worst suited. They are usually "greenies" with liberal arts degrees and darn close to no technical training. They may be super intelligent in their field but when it come to babysitting a PV system they can be fish out of water. Some eventually figure it out but its usually a real steep learning curve. I ran into one such couple who bought an off grid home and both partners were retired academics, nice ladies but totally clueless with technical stuff. They got sick of running out of power and having to run the generator and then writing checks to so called solar "experts" trying to solve the fundamental problem that they just were unable to realize that they had to change their lifestyle to match the systems capabilities. They probably over paid for the house as they were clueless and then dumped it at loss after a couple of years. When I ran into them they were on a crusade to convince everyone they met that "solar was bad" including grid tied.

[Sunking]

Like I said, Leverage and you have a whole lot of Leverage. When it comes down to it there is no market for a Off-Grid home. You eliminate just about all potential buyers. Take whatever they are asking, then discount what it will cost to have it removed and replaced with utility services. If no deal come back to it again in 6-months or a year, no one is going to buy it. Wait until they are ready to take a soaking with a huge loss.

[histeel]

I have not determined how far grid power is that would determine if i would go into negotiations.It is nearby they are building a few other homes now. Time will tell you are correct no one is looking for an off grid house. Kinda lookin for a deal if i can pull in grid power now. I believe this would be a good candidate for a grid tie system, depends on how far you have to bring grid in. we will see what happens there are several other off grid homes in the area but it looks like there solar systems are more updated and capable of running the entire home.

[J.P.M.]

I have not determined how far grid power is that would determine if i would go into negotiations.It is nearby they are building a few other homes now. Time will tell you are correct no one is looking for an off grid house. Kinda lookin for a deal if i can pull in grid power now. I believe this would be a good candidate for a grid tie system, depends on how far you have to bring grid in. we will see what happens there are several other off grid homes in the area but it looks like there solar systems are more updated and capable of running the entire home.

Reread Peakbagger's post. He speaks the truth.

I'd avoid the house. The alternate energy systems that are installed are, in all likelihood, too intimately connected and interwoven with the building and its innards to either be modified, worked on or otherwise maintained without affecting other building systems. Such things as usually done back in the day are usually more than simply bolt on equipment that can easily be changed out.

Suit yourself, but my suspicion is that, as Peakbagger notes or alludes, you'll find in a PITA in short order. NOMB, but why do you need 4,000 ft.^2 anyway ? Sure doesn't sound environmentally conscientious to me.


This place sounds a lot like the home that Amory Lovins built in 1982 -1984 in Old Snowmass with a bunch of volunteer labor and donations. What a con/trainwreck. He's still running that con last time I checked, unless this is that same turkey. and he's trying to unload it.

[AzRoute66]

Golly Molly, avoid the house because it has an old outdated solar system? It also has some serious square footage and a lot of windows with a view. It probably is something we would all drool over if it was on grid. I think the two biggest things I would want to know is who/how many are going to live there and will they be full time living or more of a summer/vacation house or what?

As peakbagger suggested, for off grid living you must become at least semi-expert on the system, if you don't embrace that stay away from an off-grid purchase. Period. Have them call you when there are power company trucks in the driveway.

As Sunking suggested, you have a massive amount of leverage. You are buying a very large 'cabin' currently without modern electricity. At the very least use every ounce of that.

What do you have? You have some poles with racks on them already planted. I suspect the wiring 'might' accommodate modern panels as the picture shows jumpering the old ones for either 12 or 6 volts, suggesting some good thick wires. You have a very good brand generator that may be long in the tooth.. You have a lot of roof. You have some turbines that might contribute. You have some battery bank cabling in good repair (probably).

What do you need? Pretty much all of the components; inverter, panels, batteries, panels, the whole ball of wax. How much of that we can help you with but we would need a lot of info starting with you doing a real load list - and finding out if the grid power is even going to be an option. I don't know about you but I am not even going to use it for weekends without some big TVs, satellite receivers, computers with peripherals, a deep freezer, a stereo or two, a dishwasher, a garage door opener, maybe a security system, a half dozen ceiling fans, and a cartload of kitchen appliances, etc. in addition to what you listed. I am what I am.

You, on the other hand may be itching for the true off-grid experience and just want to do it right. Whole different load list, whole different approach. Whole different schedule for doing laundry and running that pressure washer on the deck. Go to bed earlier because surfing the net on your battery bank makes you feel guilty... It needs to truly be a lifestyle choice.

Either way, once you decide what you want, refine that list of what you could keep with a trusted electrician and have some fun with learning the process. Even if you don't buy this place, the next might need some solar enhancement.