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  • Will my solar system charge two crown forklift batteries?

    Hello,

    I've tried to figure this out on my own and I have to give up, I'm just not getting all these numbers.

    Could someone possibly help me out with getting the batteries I need?

    I just purchased this system:

    Outback 7500W FP2
    FLEXpower FP2 GVFX3648 FLEX2-48-7500 7,500 37,500 Watts 48 / 120 | 240 Off-Grid
    Grid-interactive 2 - GVFX3648
    ----

    I don't really know what most of that means but my question is will that array charge two of
    these batteries which will make a 48 volt forklift battery:

    "Crown Industrial Battery - 24 Volts, 1060 Amp-Hours"


    Will that even work?

    Any help at all would be greatly appreciated!

    Thank you,
    Mark

  • #2
    Very interesting you spent around $23,000 on equipment and do not know if it will work or not. No one can answer your question acurately because you have not provided any details of how much energy you use in a day or your location. What I can tell tell you is the Outback FP2 kit documentation is high on crack claiming the system can generate 35 Kwh/day as that is impossible. Using worse case moths of say 3 Sun Hours is only good for 15 Kwh per day at best. In Summer if you live on the equator with a 7 Sun Hour day you could get 35 Kwh, but very few places on earth get that kind of Sun.

    Second Point is a 24 volt 1060 AH battery can supply up to 5 Kwh per day at 20% DOD and up to 12 Kwh per day to 50% DOD, which means not near enough battery for a 7500 watt panel. So the answer to your question is YES it will charge those batteries. It will work if you limit daily usage to 5 to !0 Kwh per day, but you could have done that at half the cost by matching components.

    Here is the bottom line. Who ever made up this kit is clueless. With a panel wattage of 7500 watts requires a 60 volt battery using a 80 amp MPPT charger and those chargers cost around $600 each. If you were to use 24 volt battery means you need 3 of those $600 80 amp controllers. Kind of funny huh?
    MSEE, PE

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Sunking View Post
      Very interesting you spent around $23,000 on equipment and do not know if it will work or not. No one can answer your question acurately because you have not provided any details of how much energy you use in a day or your location. What I can tell tell you is the Outback FP2 kit documentation is high on crack claiming the system can generate 35 Kwh/day as that is impossible. Using worse case moths of say 3 Sun Hours is only good for 15 Kwh per day at best. In Summer if you live on the equator with a 7 Sun Hour day you could get 35 Kwh, but very few places on earth get that kind of Sun.

      Second Point is a 24 volt 1060 AH battery can supply up to 5 Kwh per day at 20% DOD and up to 12 Kwh per day to 50% DOD, which means not near enough battery for a 7500 watt panel. So the answer to your question is YES it will charge those batteries. It will work if you limit daily usage to 5 to !0 Kwh per day, but you could have done that at half the cost by matching components.

      Here is the bottom line. Who ever made up this kit is clueless. With a panel wattage of 7500 watts requires a 60 volt battery using a 80 amp MPPT charger and those chargers cost around $600 each. If you were to use 24 volt battery means you need 3 of those $600 80 amp controllers. Kind of funny huh?
      I am not saying the OP didn't purchased a pig in a poke but you have some of his data wrong, or I have some of my math wrong.

      He wants to charge two of those 24v 1060AH batteries as a 48volt system. While I believe the claim of the Outback FP2 generating 37.5 kWh is high for a 7500 watt system it might be the "best possible or max rating" to falsely advertise it's abilities. Still it should produce around 30kWh during the summer which is more than half of what that 48v 1060Ah battery (48v * 1060Ah = 50.9kWh) can provide.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
        Very interesting you spent around $23,000 on equipment and do not know if it will work or not. No one can answer your question acurately because you have not provided any details of how much energy you use in a day or your location. What I can tell tell you is the Outback FP2 kit documentation is high on crack claiming the system can generate 35 Kwh/day as that is impossible. Using worse case moths of say 3 Sun Hours is only good for 15 Kwh per day at best. In Summer if you live on the equator with a 7 Sun Hour day you could get 35 Kwh, but very few places on earth get that kind of Sun.

        Second Point is a 24 volt 1060 AH battery can supply up to 5 Kwh per day at 20% DOD and up to 12 Kwh per day to 50% DOD, which means not near enough battery for a 7500 watt panel. So the answer to your question is YES it will charge those batteries. It will work if you limit daily usage to 5 to !0 Kwh per day, but you could have done that at half the cost by matching components.

        Here is the bottom line. Who ever made up this kit is clueless. With a panel wattage of 7500 watts requires a 60 volt battery using a 80 amp MPPT charger and those chargers cost around $600 each. If you were to use 24 volt battery means you need 3 of those $600 80 amp controllers. Kind of funny huh?

        Well now I'm even more confused.

        I live in Louisiana and got the system from: http://www.bluepacificsolar.com/off-...-grid-kit.html

        I have not bought batteries yet, just the system above.

        I'm buying all very efficient appliances like sundanzer and so forth but the main usage will be from indoor grow lights. We're planning for worst case senario and need to run about 12 250 watt Led grow lights 12 hours a day. Could get away with running them 8 hours a day though.

        I know I didn't go about this the right way, I'm in a hurry, but now that I'm in it with this particular set up I just need to find my batteries.

        Thanks,
        Mark

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
          I am not saying the OP didn't purchased a pig in a poke but you have some of his data wrong, or I have some of my math wrong.

          He wants to charge two of those 24v 1060AH batteries as a 48volt system. While I believe the claim of the Outback FP2 generating 37.5 kWh is high for a 7500 watt system it might be the "best possible or max rating" to falsely advertise it's abilities. Still it should produce around 30kWh during the summer which is more than half of what that 48v 1060Ah battery (48v * 1060Ah = 50.9kWh) can provide.
          Hey SunEagle,

          So if I get those two batteries and hook them up this system should be able to charge them as well as do a monthly equalization charge on them?

          I forgot the equalization charge without using a gas generator was what I was also concerned about.

          I'm looking at worse case scenario and there is no gas in worse case scenario

          Thanks!
          Mark

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Mark Doorlast View Post
            Hey SunEagle,

            So if I get those two batteries and hook them up this system should be able to charge them as well as do a monthly equalization charge on them?

            I forgot the equalization charge without using a gas generator was what I was also concerned about.

            I'm looking at worse case scenario and there is no gas in worse case scenario

            Thanks!
            Mark
            Well that Outback system indicates it can generate above 30kWh with those 7500 watt of panels and all you need is a 48volt battery.

            I just don't know if your 48volt 1060Ah battery system is matched properly to the Outback chargers. And I do not think you can have a 3000watt load for 12hours on that battery system without hurting the them.
            Last edited by SunEagle; 10-20-2014, 04:43 PM. Reason: correct batt voltage

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
              I am not saying the OP didn't purchased a pig in a poke but you have some of his data wrong, or I have some of my math wrong.
              Would not be the first time huh? Regardless the math still does not work. 7500 watts at 48 volt battery is what current? 150 amps maybe on an 80 amp controller?

              NOLA receives the highest Insolation and in December is 3.2 Sun Hours and peaks in June at 6 Sun Hours. That means the 7500 watt system if he could actually pass 150 amps to the batteries would be 15.8 Kwh in winter and up to 28 Kwh late June. But he can only utilize 80 amps so that cuts it down some 35 to 40% off the top of my head. The claims are FALSE.

              Sooner or later the OP will discover by going off grid, He She just volunteered a huge rate increase for the rest of their life. Instead of Paying the POCO 12 cents per Kwh he will now pay 60-cents per Kwh just in battery cost alone. I will not even factor in the $25,000 he paid for panels, controller, and inverter. That would be embarrassing if I did that.
              MSEE, PE

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                Would not be the first time huh? Regardless the math still does not work. 7500 watts at 48 volt battery is what current? 150 amps maybe on an 80 amp controller?

                NOLA receives the highest Insolation and in December is 3.2 Sun Hours and peaks in June at 6 Sun Hours. That means the 7500 watt system if he could actually pass 150 amps to the batteries would be 15.8 Kwh in winter and up to 28 Kwh late June. But he can only utilize 80 amps so that cuts it down some 35 to 40% off the top of my head. The claims are FALSE.

                Sooner or later the OP will discover by going off grid, He She just volunteered a huge rate increase for the rest of their life. Instead of Paying the POCO 12 cents per Kwh he will now pay 60-cents per Kwh just in battery cost alone. I will not even factor in the $25,000 he paid for panels, controller, and inverter. That would be embarrassing if I did that.

                Do you work for an electric company?

                What I'm doing has nothing to do with cost per Kwh. I have no intention on living on solar until and IF I'm forced to. You haven't read enough to see there is two 80 amp controllers. Please respond to what is there or don't at all.

                Mark

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mark Doorlast View Post
                  Do you work for an electric company?
                  Kind of down in Panama.

                  Originally posted by Mark Doorlast View Post
                  You haven't read enough to see there is two 80 amp controllers. Please respond to what is there or don't at all.
                  Which is a huge Red Flag the system is poorly designed. With two sets of the batteries all $11,000 worth you will be replacing in about 5 years can only provide you with 10 Kwh per day of usable energy in a day. Not even enough to run your air conditioner, not the 30 Kwh you claim or believe and would need. In NOLA to go off-grid to generate 10 Kwh of usable electricity only takes 4200 watts of solar panels and a single 80 amp controller.

                  Personally I do not care if you over pay, that is your problem. All I am telling you in 5 years you can buy the same amount of electricity from the mean ole nasty POCO for $2200, vs $11,000 in battery cost alone. For you your first 5 years will cost you $35,000 plus one more thing you did not include.

                  You forgot 1 item you must have, a stationary 8 to 12 Kw generator with a 550 gallon LPG tank. That will set you back another $8000 to $12,000.

                  Last comment if you are not going off-grid why on earth are you doing this?

                  Good luck.
                  MSEE, PE

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                    Kind of down in Panama.



                    Which is a huge Red Flag the system is poorly designed. With two sets of the batteries all $11,000 worth you will be replacing in about 5 years can only provide you with 10 Kwh per day of usable energy in a day. Not even enough to run your air conditioner, not the 30 Kwh you claim or believe and would need. In NOLA to go off-grid to generate 10 Kwh of usable electricity only takes 4200 watts of solar panels and a single 80 amp controller.

                    Personally I do not care if you over pay, that is your problem. All I am telling you in 5 years you can buy the same amount of electricity from the mean ole nasty POCO for $2200, vs $11,000 in battery cost alone. For you your first 5 years will cost you $35,000 plus one more thing you did not include.

                    You forgot 1 item you must have, a stationary 8 to 12 Kw generator with a 550 gallon LPG tank. That will set you back another $8000 to $12,000.

                    Last comment if you are not going off-grid why on earth are you doing this?

                    Good luck.
                    Sunking

                    While I agree with you that system is a huge expense and not something I would do, according to Outback it is a designed Hybrid system that has both grid tie inverters as well as has the ability to charge a battery storage system.

                    So he will have 7500 watts of panels that are "grid tie" where he can offset some of his daytime electrical usage and possibly get a Net meter contract in the future (I'm not sure about Louisiana) as well as a very expensive battery backup system. Along with a generator he will have spent a lot of money and probably not get any ROI. But this is something he wants to do just like some of our other members that have similar Hybrid systems.

                    Again I wouldn't purchase something like that unless my POCO was very expensive and unreliable, but it is his money.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
                      Again I wouldn't purchase something like that unless my POCO was very expensive and unreliable, but it is his money.
                      I understand that, but all I am trying to do is make him tap the brakes and slow down a minute to weigh all options. As you know he can get exactly what he watts at a fraction of the cost. Sounds to me like he wants emergency power during extended power outages and a grid tied system?

                      That being said there is a lot more effective and cost efficient ways to do that with out all the limitations of a battery system. You know where I am going with this. All it takes is a conventional grid tied system with a pad mounted generator and LPG tank.

                      Another he has not considered is with the Hybrid Inverter is going to force him to rewire his home wiring to re-route emergency circuit to the Inverters built in transfer switch. That is another huge expense and hot water, air conditioning, and cooking will not be part of that picture as the Inverter ATS and distribution is only good for 60 amps or just 8 circuits. Now how much do you want to bet no one has told him that, or he even considered that? With a Emergency pad mount generator he can pretty much run everything like nothing ever happened after that hurricane blows through and his panels are gone with the wind.

                      You may not like my tactics, I don't care, but I hate to see folks throw money away when there are other options available to them that are more effective at a fraction of the cost. Just like yourself if you had come here first, you would have done things completely differently right? Fortunately for him there is still time. I would tell him the same thing if he were my client. Difference is I would charge a fee.

                      With a hybrid system he stills needs a genny. Why waste all that money on batteries, hybrid Inverter, and charge controllers that can only supply limited power when for 1/3 the cost he can have a system that does exactly what he wants without power limitations?
                      MSEE, PE

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sunking View Post
                        I understand that, but all I am trying to do is make him tap the brakes and slow down a minute to weigh all options. As you know he can get exactly what he watts at a fraction of the cost. Sounds to me like he wants emergency power during extended power outages and a grid tied system?

                        That being said there is a lot more effective and cost efficient ways to do that with out all the limitations of a battery system. You know where I am going with this. All it takes is a conventional grid tied system with a pad mounted generator and LPG tank.

                        Another he has not considered is with the Hybrid Inverter is going to force him to rewire his home wiring to re-route emergency circuit to the Inverters built in transfer switch. That is another huge expense and hot water, air conditioning, and cooking will not be part of that picture as the Inverter ATS and distribution is only good for 60 amps or just 8 circuits. Now how much do you want to bet no one has told him that, or he even considered that? With a Emergency pad mount generator he can pretty much run everything like nothing ever happened after that hurricane blows through and his panels are gone with the wind.

                        You may not like my tactics, I don't care, but I hate to see folks throw money away when there are other options available to them that are more effective at a fraction of the cost. Just like yourself if you had come here first, you would have done things completely differently right? Fortunately for him there is still time. I would tell him the same thing if he were my client. Difference is I would charge a fee.

                        With a hybrid system he stills needs a genny. Why waste all that money on batteries, hybrid Inverter, and charge controllers that can only supply limited power when for 1/3 the cost he can have a system that does exactly what he wants without power limitations?
                        I agree with what you say. And wish the OP would have come here first and asked questions before investing in that expensive Hybrid system. I also have no problem with using the 2 x 4 approach to get someones attention that they are going the wrong way thinking off grid will save them money.

                        Some people don't care about the money and have already made up their mind to head in a direction (right or wrong) that no one will be able to change. Unfortunately since he already purchased the equipment and may not be able to return it he has started down his path. So since he now has the Hybrid system and needs some info on those forklift batteries he wants to purchase, I felt I could at least give him some idea.

                        I still do not know what his reason is for that system but in his mind it is mission critical to have a backup power source. You and I would go with the genny but he wants a battery. Those forklift batteries should work with that Hybrid system but again maybe not. Only the future will say and hopefully the OP will get back with some good news once he gets it working.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You know, I've never seen an industry where no one agrees on anything. Everyone is dead wrong. Everyone is dead right. Weirdest thing I've ever seen. The only thing I can figure is it's rigged to all hell and back so people can be endessly fleeced.

                          I was going to go with a system from Wholesale Solar


                          But I guess it's trash too.

                          I also bought the freedom package from ironedison. Maggie's a cool lady. I had heard awesome things about ole Edisons battery. As the shipment was arriving I heard refilling the electrolyte will run into the tens of thousands for big batteries and you gotta fill them with water twice a day. LOL. You simply can't win in this game.

                          Get some crap off ebay, plug it up and see if it will run something? Is that what I gotta do?

                          And since when does a Crown forklift battery go dead in 5 years? I heard literally everywhere, even here I think, that they routinely last 15 years. Another dead end?

                          Really it's not that big a deal. If I screwed up I'll piece it out on ebay and start over. I'm seriously thinking about getting all the things I'll need to run and setting up a smaller system for each one of them. Actually I think that's what I might do.

                          SunEagle can you tell me what I'd need to run exactly this:

                          Instead of 12 lights let's go with only 6. Six 250 watt led bulbs 12 hours a day. That's 18,000 Watt hours a day if my math is right (it definitely may not be.

                          If this goes beyond what you feel like answering in a forum I apologize in advance. I actually googled consultants and the only ones I could find were selling solar systems.

                          Thanks!
                          Mark

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Mark Doorlast View Post
                            You know, I've never seen an industry where no one agrees on anything. Everyone is dead wrong. Everyone is dead right. Weirdest thing I've ever seen. The only thing I can figure is it's rigged to all hell and back so people can be endessly fleeced.

                            I was going to go with this one:
                            http://www.wholesalesolar.com/solarp...er-system.html

                            But I guess it's trash too.

                            I also bought the freedom package from ironedison. Maggie's a cool lady. I had heard awesome things about ole Edisons battery. As the shipment was arriving I heard refilling the electrolyte will run into the tens of thousands for big batteries and you gotta fill them with water twice a day. LOL. You simply can't win in this game.

                            Get some crap off ebay, plug it up and see if it will run something? Is that what I gotta do?

                            And since when does a Crown forklift battery go dead in 5 years? I heard literally everywhere, even here I think, that they routinely last 15 years. Another dead end?

                            Really it's not that big a deal. If I screwed up I'll piece it out on ebay and start over. I'm seriously thinking about getting all the things I'll need to run and setting up a smaller system for each one of them. Actually I think that's what I might do.

                            SunEagle can you tell me what I'd need to run exactly this:

                            Instead of 12 lights let's go with only 6. Six 250 watt led bulbs 12 hours a day. That's 18,000 Watt hours a day if my math is right (it definitely may not be.

                            If this goes beyond what you feel like answering in a forum I apologize in advance. I actually googled consultants and the only ones I could find were selling solar systems.

                            Thanks!
                            Mark
                            Your math is correct. To safely run 18kWh a day on batteries the minimum system you would need is 48volts @ 1300 AH. The solar panel wattage between 6000 & 7000 watts and a 150amp MPPT charge controller. A 48volt inverter around 2000 watts. Since it is just some lights and not electronics you might be able to get away with a Modified Sine Wave type but if you decide to run a frig or something else that is sensitive to MSW you should look into a Pure Sine Wave inverter. Plus a 8kw to 10kw generator and battery charger good for 150amps to help maintain that battery system if the sun doesn't shine for a day or two.

                            Now I haven't had my second cup of coffee and my math could be wrong so maybe someone else who is more knowledgeable about off grid systems will come along and verify my math.

                            All this said and done that system will cost you over $25,000 plus the generator and still doesn't help reduce your electric costs by using a solar battery system instead of the POCO electricity. Maintaining a battery system that size will take an amount of your time and you will still have to replace them in 5 years. Over all that system will never pay for itself. You could get away spending a lot less just using the POCO and getting the generator if the grid goes down.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Mark although you do not realize it we are trying to help you. It is not our fault you went and made a major investment without doing due diligence. But try to listen and it might make sense to you. First you have not stated your goal. I can only assume from the info you provided it sounds like you want a Grid Tied system and emergency power for those rare times you have extended outages?

                              Can what you bought do that? Yes it can. However it can be done for a lot less money and more effectively. So let's call your way option 1 and leave it at that. YOu will need a generator to complete the system and rewire your home. If that is what you intend then click close and be done with it. Good Luck

                              However if you want to know 2 other options read on and listen.

                              Option 2

                              Use what you bought, except you only need a small 48 volt battery. Say around 100 AH AGM. Under normal operating conditions you have a Hybrid Grid Tied System and the batteries and sit there and collect dust. Not an opinion, it is fact. When power goes off. The internal Transfer Switch of the inverter operates and disconnects from the grid and connects to your emergency loads only. If the sun is out and producing more power than you demand, all the power comes from the panels and not the batteries. All the batteries do in that case is regulate voltage. It does not take a large battery to do that. Again is a fact. If you have cloud cover or night power comes from the batteries. When the batteries drain down your hybrid inverter sends a start signal to a generator you must have either way. The generator picks up the loads and recharges your batteries. Once the batteries are recharged the generator shuts down and the whole cycle repeats itself until commercial power is restored.

                              That means you do not need two very expensive 80 amp charge controllers, just a single smaller controller. Nor would you need a monster sized $11,000 battery that is rarely if ever used. All you need is a battery 1/10th the size or even smaller. Bu tit comes with some disadvantages which are many and costly.

                              1. Hybrid systems are inefficient because they generally operate at much lower voltages than a grid tied system. That means more wiring and much larger wires which cost real big bucks.
                              2. A hybrid inverter cost much more than a like size Grid Tied invert. It has more stuff in it like an Automatic Transfer switch, battery inverter, battery charger, and generator support and control.
                              3. That ATS switch inside the inverter is behind your electric meter and is only good for 60 amps. What that means is you are going to have to have an electrician install you an Emergency Breaker Panel connected to the inverter. Then the electrician will move up to 8 Emergency circuits to the Emergency Breaker panel. That is a huge expense. Those circuits will not be any air conditioning, electric cooking. hot water, or high wattage appliances. Just things like your refrigerator, freezer, some lighting, and a few receptacles for things like TV, phone, satellite, etc..

                              So now be honest with yourself and ask yourself a couple of good questions. If I need a generator, why do I want batteries, very expensive batteries that wil be rarely used? You don't have to tell us. If that is what you want to do click close and be done with it.

                              Option 3

                              Scrap your idea and take your losses. Then install a conventional grid tied system with a pad mounted generator using LPG fuel stored in a 150 to 550 gallon tank. If you want you can use the LPG for hot water, cooking, and heating which in your area is likely cheaper than electricity. The generator will have an Automatic Transfer Switch (ATS) but ahead of your electric meter, not behind it. When power fails, generator starts up and the ATS switches from utility to generator. Providing the generator is sized correctly will power everything in your home. No rewiring of your home required. Will cost 1/3 to 1/2 of doing it your way and much more effective.

                              Those are some of your options. One more question you need to ask yourself. If you are on the coast and a Hurricane blows in; What happens to those panels on your roof?

                              Good Luck.
                              MSEE, PE

                              Comment

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