Batteries on the way

[Guest]

It is really easy to do all you have to do is search: Most damning evidence is the owner John D'Angelo was sentenced to two-years prison. He killed a young boy with his products:

Company President Sentenced to Jail for CPSC Violations

WASHINGTON, D.C. - The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) announced today that John D'Angelo, owner and president of Utility Free Inc., a Colorado-based distributor of alternative energy products, was sentenced to nearly two years in jail for violating two laws enforced by CPSC. Mr. D'Angelo pled guilty to 15 counts of improperly shipping hazardous substances, including a highly corrosive, clear electrolyte solution. In December 1993, 15-year-old Justin Pulliam mistook the solution for water because Mr. D'Angelo had shipped it in a reused plastic one-gallon milk container that lacked appropriate warnings. The teenager drank it and died two weeks later from severe internal injuries.

The Federal Hazardous Substances Act prohibits the shipment of hazardous substances in reused food containers and without proper warning labels that contain safety information. The Poison Prevention Packaging Act requires that certain chemicals be marketed in child-resistant packaging. Mr. D'Angelo violated both laws. His sentence is the longest jail time ever imposed for violations of laws enforced by CPSC.

more....

Mr D'Angelo did not kill anyone nor was he arrested on any such charges. All his charges where misdemeanors (a fact). People rarely if ever go to jail for misdemeanors (another fact). The 15 year old committed suicide (for fact verification on that read the local police report which no one seems to know about or call his dealer at the time who stored the electrolyte in his garage, Peter, who's son was there telling the man not to drink electrolyte from the container once then Justin drank from the container a little later. The container had a 4" label (I have a copy if you want to see it) on it with a very large skull and crossbones on the label. No other labels where on the container that indicated it was a "milk carton". In fact it was a recycled distilled water container! Mr D'Angelo was the scapegoat for the Federal government. I think you need to dig a little deeper into the TRUE facts of the case. He was sentenced to misdemeanors and was NEVER charged with killing anyone. As far as lacking appropriate "warnings" as this press release states the one gallon jug was labeled clearly with a skull and cross bones indicating that the contents where poison. What 15 years old would not know this? Anyway what does this have to do with this thread about nickel iron batteries and questions that you can't seem to answer?

As usually Russ you never really answer any questions you are asked. Who is pissed at beutilityfree? What is the manufactures warranty? Who are you really. Just someone that wants to bring up crap that has nothing to do with this thread?

Have a very happy new year!

[Mike90250]

......... What I am really curious about is the high internal resistance issues of NiFe and what will happen when you load them heavily on the inverter. I think you know where I am going with this. Let me know if the inverter trips off-line.

No issues so far. Actually, a large floor sander, that pulls more than 7KW (the contractors 8KW genset would not run it) ran off the inverter all day, for 2 days, flattening the batteries. Solar was only about 2.4KW rest came out of the batteries. Running the microwave, toaster, hair dryer, has all been pretty transparent. We do get a flicker sometimes when the fridge kicks on, but I think that is more inverter response, than battery resistance.

[inetdog]

No issues so far. Actually, a large floor sander, that pulls more than 7KW (the contractors 8KW genset would not run it) ran off the inverter all day, for 2 days, flattening the batteries. Solar was only about 2.4KW rest came out of the batteries. Running the microwave, toaster, hair dryer, has all been pretty transparent. We do get a flicker sometimes when the fridge kicks on, but I think that is more inverter response, than battery resistance.

Glad to hear that part of the experience is still looking good. I have quite a few questions, hoping that you either have the answers or will have time to make the appropriate measurements and calculations once things settle down.

Have you measured the battery voltage with heavy load on and off at various SOC levels (as a way of estimating the effective internal resistance for those conditions)?
Since you already had to adjust things like the LVCO of the inverter to accomodate the large delta-V between high and low SOC, are you counting on that to also allow for a higher voltage drop under load?
Are you anywhere close to the low operating voltage limit of the inverter? (This would clearly be more of a problem in a lower voltage installation or with a less conservatively designed inverter.)
When looking into charge and discharge efficiency have you just been looking at the amp balance, or have you adjusted for the fact (which makes the numbers even worse) that the amps pulled from the batteries per watt of AC delivered will be higher both as the cell open circuit voltage decreases and as energy is dissipated in the internal resistance of the batteries?

All the best for the New Year.

--Dave

[Mike90250]

Glad to hear that part of the experience is still looking good. I have quite a few questions, hoping that you either have the answers or will have time to make the appropriate measurements and calculations once things settle down.
Have you measured the battery voltage with heavy load on and off at various SOC levels (as a way of estimating the effective internal resistance for those conditions)?

Not yet. I was in the game too early to get the fancy amp meter that comes with the new sets, and none of the other amp totalizers, handle 48V + very well ( my batteries charge at 69V, which is beyond most of the meters)

Since you already had to adjust things like the LVCO of the inverter to accomodate the large delta-V between high and low SOC, are you counting on that to also allow for a higher voltage drop under load?
Are you anywhere close to the low operating voltage limit of the inverter? (This would clearly be more of a problem in a lower voltage installation or with a less conservatively designed inverter.)

My inverter will go down to 40V, but I've set the LVCO at 46v, which is the lowest I want to have the batteries bleed down to. Never hit the LVCO.

When looking into charge and discharge efficiency have you just been looking at the amp balance, or have you adjusted for the fact (which makes the numbers even worse) that the amps pulled from the batteries per watt of AC delivered will be higher both as the cell open circuit voltage decreases and as energy is dissipated in the internal resistance of the batteries? All the best for the New Year. --Dave

No, I've simply totaled the input & output for a week (to get a good average) and came up with a terrible ratio

[Sundetective]

The Carbonate Conclusion - Mike's Great Experiment

They are low in the mornings . I don't think they are "under charged", many amps are being put into them, and not many being taken out. I finally got the "carbonate test kit" and will have to try it out next weekend. Ran into too many chores this weekend.

If it's just some fine tuning still needed, I'll be OK, if it's a lieing sack of sales pitch, with no basis in reality, then not so rosy.

Mike,

What did your carbonate test kit have to say?

I'm wondering if someone would really need to bother to send a sample of
the KOH or the LiOH to a lab for testing.

Back in the day it was well known that the 50 pound bag of Quick Lime was done
absorbing CO2 in the Apple Storage room when it gained around 36% of it's original weight
up to 68 pounds.

That's a lot.

Old Bill is guessing that the KOH and the LiOH would pick up just as much percentage -
if not a bit more.

Would the original weight (per unit) from the chemical manufacturer and a real good little
Mini Scale be all the test that a person needs to get a general idea as to whether they
got done - or not?


Bill Blake

[inetdog]

...
Old Bill is guessing that the KOH and the LiOH would pick up just as much percentage -
if not a bit more.

Would the original weight (per unit) from the chemical manufacturer and a real good little
Mini Scale be all the test that a person needs to get a general idea as to whether they
got done - or not?
=

Interesting thought. I wonder whether the reverse would be true and instead of weighing the dry chemicals to see how they have been contaminated, you weighed the electrolyte (or the cells themselves) to see what has happened to them?
You would have to correct for a possible change in volume of the electrolyte as the CO2 was absorbed and converted to carbonate, but it might serve as a crude substitute for a test kit.

[Mike90250]

Weighing the cell won't work, as the added water over the years will blow that calculation. Oh yeah, gotta add water next week too. There goes another $25 for 25 gallon of distilled.

[Sunking]

There goes another $25 for 25 gallon of distilled.

I gotta new job offer for you Mike. It will make and save you some money. Make a still and make distilled water and white lightning. Good Shine goes for $50/gal now days.

[inetdog]

I gotta new job offer for you Mike. It will make and save you some money. Make a still and make distilled water and white lightning. Good Shine goes for $50/gal now days.

Just don't get the two mixed up or both your batteries and your customers will be unhappy.

[Sundetective]

Weighing the cell won't work, as the added water over the years will blow that calculation. Oh yeah, gotta add water next week too. There goes another $25 for 25 gallon of distilled.

Mike,

How long do you figure that 25 gallons of distilled water will last you?

Have you ever talked with Hank or Stephen at Zapp Works to get an opinion
on what's going on with your Ni-Fe Cells.

Who on the planet would know any more about Ni-Fe
other than Changhong (the builders) themselves.

Zapp Works may be able to tell you how to reverse at least some of
the Capacity Loss if you catch one of them
in the right mood.

What a Doctor has to say about Distilled water - just strictly for fun.

Can I get a witness

'Early Death Comes From Drinking Distilled Water'

<snip>

Fasting using distilled water can be dangerous because of the rapid loss of electrolytes
(sodium, potassium, chloride) and trace minerals like magnesium, deficiencies of which can cause
heart beat irregularities and high blood pressure.
Cooking foods in distilled water pulls the minerals out of them and lowers their nutrient value.

Distilled water is an active absorber and when it comes into contact with air, it absorbs carbon dioxide, making it acidic. The more distilled water a person drinks, the higher the body acidity becomes.

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency,

"Distilled water, being essentially mineral-free, is very aggressive, in that it tends to
dissolve substances with which it is in contact.

Notably, carbon dioxide from the air is rapidly absorbed,
making the water acidic and even more aggressive.

Many metals are dissolved by distilled water."

The most toxic commercial beverages that people consume (i.e. cola beverages and other soft drinks)
are made from distilled water. Studies have consistently shown that heavy consumers of soft drinks
(with or without sugar) spill huge amounts of calcium, magnesium and other trace minerals
into the urine.

<end of snip>

http://www.mercola.com/article/water/distilled_water.htm

================================================== ===========

One day that 'Disco Inferno' song that I posted for the gang will really come home.
Keep the near unlimited Oxygen production in mind (while charging) along with the
suspected large amounts of carbon in the Chinese powders - from the jump.


Bill Blake

[russ]

A somewhat typical disclaimer that says a lot and says nothing. If you have a water supply without adequate minerals you have to take supplements - same with RO water.

An old wive's tales is that softened water is more corrosive for the same reason - old wives tale

[awcristelli]

Stevec, mike90250

I am looking at buying nife battery's. I have a 12v system and am looking at 10 either 600ah or 800ah. You have had your for a wile, how do you like them and would you suggest buying them or do you think I should stay with LA's.
my system is 1800w pv, 2 MX60 charge controler and 2 vfx2812 inverters and 24 golf cart battery's.

Thank You
Andy

[Mike90250]

Stevec, mike90250
I am looking at buying nife battery's. I have a 12v system and am looking at 10 either 600ah or 800ah. You have had your for a wile, how do you like them and would you suggest buying them or do you think I should stay with LA's.
my system is 1800w pv, 2 MX60 charge controler and 2 vfx2812 inverters and 24 golf cart battery's.
Thank YouAndy

Why are you working with 12V, storing that much power, in parallel strings ? Screams to be changed to 24 or 48V when an inverter dies.

If you are able to recharge to 95% 2x a week, stay with LA. I'm in a situation with regular 2-3 week rain/cloud cover at a time, and solar is non-functional, and generator fuel to complete Absorb and Float is prohibitive, So, NiFe works for me, as log as I can water them.

[awcristelli]

Mike,

I started as a camp so at the time 12v was fine. I am able to run my house fine on the 12v and the cost to upgrade at this time isn't there. If I do have to replace an inverter I will probably switch up to 24v. That is part of the reason I am looking at NIFE, other reason is I have replaced this bank once already and am in the process of #2, and with the nife you can replace 1 cell or ad to them anytime. Plus I am 65 and am thinking in the future about replacing the bank. Did you buy your in the us or did you order them directly from china/

Thanks
Andy

[inetdog]

Mike,

I started as a camp so at the time 12v was fine. I am able to run my house fine on the 12v and the cost to upgrade at this time isn't there. If I do have to replace an inverter I will probably switch up to 24v. That is part of the reason I am looking at NIFE, other reason is I have replaced this bank once already and am in the process of #2, and with the nife you can replace 1 cell or ad to them anytime. Plus I am 65 and am thinking in the future about replacing the bank. Did you buy your in the us or did you order them directly from china/

Thanks
Andy

Andy,
At 65 one thing you need to keep in mind is that eventually you will have to lift up all the NiFe cells to replace the electrolyte.
The weight is bad enough without worrying about the caustic electrolyte at the same time.
You will probably have to build a cradle to tilt them rather than just trying to pick them up.