Batteries on the way

[Sunking]

Or I'll measure by weight.

It is a weight ratio.

[Sunking]

since there apparently are no amercian mfgs, just rebuilders of the NiFe's from the 60's

There is a good reason no USA manufactures make them and why Edison never renewed the patent. Exide battery was the last manufacture in the USA and they discontinued production in mid 70's.

[Sunking]

I knew instantly Sunking would be against them.

Against them? Not really, especially when it comes to Mike. Like myself, Mike is an engineer, did his homework, understands the physics, technical challenges, and economics. As you can read Mike's comments, you can tell he is nervous and not certain of his decision.

Mike,

What I am really curious about is the high internal resistance issues of NiFe and what will happen when you load them heavily on the inverter. I think you know where I am going with this. Let me know if the inverter trips off-line.

[Mike90250]

....
What I am really curious about is the high internal resistance issues of NiFe and what will happen when you load them heavily on the inverter. I think you know where I am going with this. Let me know if the inverter trips off-line.

Yes, this will be a rather large bank - 2x the size of the existing 400AH one. That should help the internal resistance greatly. Also thinking about a big tantalum "ripple" cap at the inverter input, to shave the peak amps (@ 120 hz) demand off the battery bank. (Fused of course)

Hopefully, I won't be pushing it at nighttime. I'm trying to wean the wife off the electric AM coffeepot, but she's addicted!

[Sunking]

Good luck to you Mike. The real challenge other than efficiency I see is the inverter operation and charge controller. Pba batteries voltage curve is realatively flat 2.1 volts fully charged to 2 volts fully discharged or 5%. NiFe on the otherhand 1.2 fully charged to .8 discharged or 33%. That can likely cause your inverters chaos.

Charging might also be an issue for the inverter. NiFe needs around 1.65 volts so on a 48 volt system is 66 volts, and fully discharged is 34 volts. Let us know how it works out and good luck.

[Mike90250]

I think I can use manual settings on the MS MPPT 60, and get up to 62v for charging, which is the input limit for the XW inverter. So I may not get 100% charges. I may need to drop a battery from the bank, but since undercharge does not seem to be a big issue, I may be OK. And I belive the inverter will run all the way down to 38V (don't ask how I know) which is what happens when the water runs all night and the pump comes on after dark. Took over a week to refill the tanks [9,000gl] after that. Then I bought a timer for the pump.

[Guest]

Steve,

I agree 100% that the hydrometer they give you is "junk" We are trying to get them to replace these with something much better quality. In time I am sure they will or we will get our own that has a LONG rubber neck on it so it can reach into the cell. The one they now provide is only good at reading from a large vessel and really not designed to take fluid out of the battery cells. For that the hydrometer is worthless, so best to get the SG correct BEFORE one put new electrolyte into the cells.

And the digital voltmeter they give you is really good and solid, that is NOT a piece of junk. I would say it is easily worth at least $125 or more if you bought the same thing brand new.

John
CEO BeUtilityFrree, Inc we have been importing nickel iron cells for since 1995


One more hint. ChangHong includes in the order a digital multimeter [instructions in Chinese, but the markings on the meter are English] and a hydrometer. This item was junk: the rubber parts did not seal at all to the glass tube and it was completely unusable. I happened to have a decent one around here. If you do not, I recommend to go get one. You probably already have one around, most battery users do. If you haven't used it in a while, test it to make sure it will draw and hold fluid, as the availability of one is essential to mixing up the electrolyte. By the way, it is not recommended to use a hydrometer which has previously been used in acid....[/QUOTE]

[Mike90250]

Hydrometer - well, I plan to mix by weight, 8lb water to xx oz of powder. Or something, I'll test before filling cells. The range of the hydrometer - same as battery acid ?

[SteveC]

Steve,


And the digital voltmeter they give you is really good and solid, that is NOT a piece of junk. I would say it is easily worth at least $125 or more if you bought the same thing brand new.

John
CEO BeUtilityFrree, Inc we have been importing nickel iron cells for since 1995

[/QUOTE]


Yes, the voltmeter is very nice and better than one I'd have bought for myself. I still use, or was til I rec'd the one from ChangHong, my old analogue multimeter from Radio Shack. Works great, but I like the new digital one. I was surprised how nice it was, since it was "free."

After three full charge/discharge cycles, I am running the house on the Ni Fe bank as of three days ago. So far, great. We'll see how they do with some short winter days and snow storms. But right now they are performing every bit as well as I'd hoped.

[Mike90250]

Well, my assistant (actually right Hand Man) reports Fed Ex delivered 6 pallets of batteries and dry chemical ! Now I just have to get up to the ranch again, and REALLY hook them up this time.

Mike

PS - carbonated-NiFe-issues have been moved to their own thread:

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?5259-carbonated-NiFe-issues

[john p]

good to hear you making some progress,
I for one am and im sure others are also really interested in exactly what you do with them and how they perform and any problems you encounter. so keep us informed.

[Mike90250]

Right, I will start a new thread for commissioning, and andother for usage.

I've found deep in the manuals, the XW6048 can accept up to 70VDC on the inputs and will go down to 40VDC. My MS charge controller can go up to 62 (or was it 64v) in a custom mode, and the XW on the genset, will go up to 64V charging from 240VAC.

[Sundetective]

Right, I will start a new thread for commissioning, and and other for usage.

I've found deep in the manuals, the XW6048 can accept up to 70VDC on the inputs and will go down to 40VDC. My MS charge controller can go up to 62 (or was it 64v) in a custom mode, and the XW on the genset, will go up to 64V charging from 240VAC.

Hello Mike, It would be nice to know the Cell empty weight especially if they are the clear MBS plastic.
There was a bit of a hub-bub on the Internet over the weight change from the translucent PP Plastic
(or whatever) in 2009.

The fellow involved with the purchase of 40 NiFe Cells in 2009 also weighed the KOH and the LiOH exactly so someone could do a comparison
of the percentages then and the percentages now if they wished.

He left a List of 13 Questions before he got P-ed off and stopped all the info Cold. That is a common occurrence in NiFe Land.

If bags of the Electrolyte chemicals sat for any length of time you could weigh them again to see how much CO2 they absorbed.
Back in the old days people knew bags of Hydrated Lime were done sucking up CO2 in the apple storage room
when the 50 pound bag grew to be 68 pounds.

The KOH should be similar to the Hydrated Lime. The LiOH should be able to absorb a lot more Carbon Dioxide per pound than most Anything.


Thanks, BB

[Guest]

Hello Mike, It would be nice to know the Cell empty weight especially if they are the clear MBS plastic.
There was a bit of a hub-bub on the Internet over the weight change from the translucent PP Plastic
(or whatever) in 2009.

The fellow involved with the purchase of 40 NiFe Cells in 2009 also weighed the KOH and the LiOH exactly so someone could do a comparison
of the percentages then and the percentages now if they wished.

He left a List of 13 Questions before he got P-ed off and stopped all the info Cold. That is a common occurrence in NiFe Land.

If bags of the Electrolyte chemicals sat for any length of time you could weigh them again to see how much CO2 they absorbed.
Back in the old days people knew bags of Hydrated Lime were done sucking up CO2 in the apple storage room
when the 50 pound bag grew to be 68 pounds.

The KOH should be similar to the Hydrated Lime. The LiOH should be able to absorb a lot more Carbon Dioxide per pound than most Anything.


Thanks, BB

BB,

If you read our customers "hub-bub" he was upset because the cells we sent him did not meant the EXACT measurements that where advertised in our literature at time of purchase. He claimed that the cells could not be the same capacity as he ordered because the cells he received cells where SMALLER in PHYSICAL size (only by a few inches or so BTW). It had nothing to do with type of material the cells where make of. Back them we sold PP cells, which we no longer do for somewhat obvious reasons. I tried to explain to him that all that matters is if the cell he bought tested out to the correct AH capacity. Well I have not heard a word from him since (2009) and don't' expect to either because I have to assume he has put them in service and got he AH he paid for. Other wise I am almost 100% certain he would be contacting us.

If you are going to let the KOH and LIOH sit around for years then you need to put the KOH in AIR TIGHT containers. That way the ONLY CO it can suck out of the air is the CO that is in the container. It is not going to suck CO2 through the container. And the small amount that one would get out of the air will not harm the KOH 10 years later. Enough said.

No need to weigh anything...if you store the chemicals correct, why make work for yourself when it is not needed?
"
The people who used "hydrated line" where not storing the lime in AIR TIGHT containers, they where looking to suck CO2 out of the air in there "apple storage rooms", but we are not using the KOH and LiOH that same way. The only commonality is that all three chemicals absorb CO2 from the air.

J
BeUtilityFree, Inc

[Mike90250]

[moderator voice ON]
1) folks - please when quoting, just snip it to the relevant part. it makes for much cleaner discussion. [Mod mode off]

...... If bags of the Electrolyte chemicals sat for any length of time you could weigh them again to see how much CO2 they absorbed .....

I would hope that the chemicals come in suitable bags, properly sealed, for a good 10 year shelf life.

Currently, everything is sitting in 6 pallets in my shop. I won't get more "vacation" from work till mid-October. That's when I get to open things up, and see what I got.

I have a digital scale rated for 75lb, and I think the empty batteries are supposed to be 66lb, so I had planned on weighing all the parts, and logging it in a spreadsheet, as I commission the batteries Till I open things up, I wont know what shipped or was "substituted". I'm now becoming concerned about substitutions , because there is more to a battery than capacity. The old spec sheets were sketchy enough about data, and I won't know till I open things up, what I actually got. And with seeing other posts on the the net about substitute parts being shipped a >year ago and accepting orders for for "old" parts, and shipping different, I can see that happening in a couple month window, but not over a year. I only hope it's for an improvement, and not a downgrade or a less suitable battery for off grid. I based my increased capacity decision on cell resistance, to handle my inverters surge requirements.
M u s t s t o p r a n t b e f o r e I b l o w a f u s e.