Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Sundetective]

Distilled shares traits with deionized.
There is an interesting article in the 1/5/15 Edition of
Ask the Experts at

https://www.circuitnet.com

Titled: Deionized Water Sample Testing.

One of the experts called it a very "hungry" acid
to get the point across.

Switching to the mylar / plastics industry it's amazing the amount
of "gas" transmission (like oxygen) that they can measure
traveling right through plastic.

You can get Mylar bags that fit the proper drums if your up
to date and slick.

Bill Blake

[inetdog]

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

I do not think that you have to worry much about algae growth in distilled water, since there are no nutrients in it at all. But maybe the algae brought a little bag of dirt along with them? The leaching of chemicals is more of a concern, but I have no idea what those organics would do in your NiFe. The most important reason for distilled/deionized s to eliminate ionic solutes with their Na, Ca, K, etc. and their Cl, carbonates and sulfates.

[Robert1234]

Also...

Another thought that I just never followed up on because I get all my deionized water for free...

Take 2 gallon jugs and connect them via an overhead line.
Paint one white and the other black (as well as paint the line black).
Fill the black jug with tap water and place outside in the sun.

Theoretically, I believe one would get 1/2-3/4 gallon distilled water in the white jug in a week or so. What I'm not sure of is whether there will be any measureable organic content. Would probably have to do a COD analysis to be sure, but it should be VERY small (in the ppm range for organics).

[Robert1234]

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

Mike, Get you one of those old blue poly drums. $69 brand new & I can get them for 5-10$ a piece around here (or sometimes free) from the recycler.

[Edit]...

http://www.uline.com/Product/Detail/S-10757BLU/Drums/55-Gallon-Blue-Closed-Top-Plastic-Drum?pricode=WY582&ds_e_ad_type=pla&gadtype=pla&id=S-10757BLU&gclid=CMyuxaiB_cICFWVp7AodMVAAAA&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Mike90250]

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

I have actually bought a water still, but it's winter, and short on power till the sun comes back. But first, I'll have to figure how to store 30 -50 gallons of distilled water with out it going bad. Something that won't leach into the water, opaque to prevent algae growth, and be easy to dispense with.

[inetdog]

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

A very interesting opportunity load, and one which Mike may end up looking at if he has a surplus in the summer.

[sahucker]

distilled water

I don't have any PV system, yet. But if I needed a large quantity of distilled water, was off-grid and had extra electricity available mid-day, I might use a copper still like my wife uses for essential oil production.

[Mike90250]

A few pages back Mike indicated that at 5 years in he could decide if he chose wisely....is this the year of enlightenment?
Scott

"October 2011 Battery Prep and install" So I have a little while to go still. I am keeping the local DI water store in business

I don't sweat wondering about getting a full charge after 3 weeks of cloudy weather, they don't have anything bad (that I know of) happen if they are not regularly filled up.

[Sundetective]

Indolence is a much bigger problem with Nickel Iron Batteries
than any technical problem.

It's no secret that Mr. Thomas Edison had things to say as does
Changhong Batteries in China today.

Do people listen?

A few examples.

Changhong gives the best, most concise, education about water consumption
a person could ask for.

Changhong warns you about the tragedy that will happen if you listen to some rogue,
jive salesman and also shows you the thousands of cycles that are possible
If you treat their product with care and respect.

How often you need to check the electrolyte for carbonates and other impurities
is based on how the batteries are being used according to the latest
NiFe Operators and Maintenence manual.

Saying your Nickel Iron Battery Internal Resistance problems are found mostly in the
Top Half of capacity is just working against yourself according to
Mighty 'Changhong and The Electric Indian'

Their NiFe Batteries were not designed to be run in a run-down
fashion in any way. Internal Resistance gets 4 times higher at 90% DOD
than it is at 50% DOD.

It goes on and on.

Another big problem is some people like to attack but can't seem to
find any way to attack the education getting Laid out on the peoples.

Let's do another Internet First by Old Bill and see if anyone can
Attack da man based on this hard data.

By (or before) 1915 Mr. Edison seems to have had enough with
the NiFe electrolyte.
He started to recommend that people just begin to
use a simple Battery Hydrometer on their
Edison Nickel Iron Cells starting around 300 cycles to determine when it is
necessary to empty the old solution out and put in new.

Plain and simple. NO minced words.

Why did we need 100 years for dis revelation ?

Bill Blake

[Living Large]

I have talked to Mike a few times. He wil have to speak for himself, but I get the impression if he had to do it over again knowing what he knows now would have gone a different direction. NiFe just has way too many negatives.

I spent 2Mh reading this entire thread. My fire has died down to 95%DOD and my back hurts from slouching here on the couch.

My guess would be you are on the right track. I'm reading about high water consumption, buying 100 gallons of distilled water at $1/gallon and squeezing it into cells, conducting pseudo-lab tests every 200 cycles, possible replacement of electrolyte, low efficiency at the upper half of the capacity, etc etc.

There is a lot of information here, test results, blather, an alleged ringer, a tragic accident and jail sentence. Quite a thread.

Edit - should add that I came to this thread after tripping across the Iron website. It is a bit hard to navigate, but I found NiFe and LFP battery solutions sold there, and came back here to see what was under the Ni thread to find out more about NiFe. This site has a lot to offer.

[Sunking]

A few pages back Mike indicated that at 5 years in he could decide if he chose wisely....is this the year of enlightenment?
Scott

I have talked to Mike a few times. He wil have to speak for himself, but I get the impression if he had to do it over again knowing what he knows now would have gone a different direction. NiFe just has way too many negatives.

[inetdog]

A few pages back Mike indicated that at 5 years in he could decide if he chose wisely....is this the year of enlightenment?
Scott

Nope, still the dark ages. I believe Mike got his iron in 2012?

[sahucker]

Coming up on 5 years

A few pages back Mike indicated that at 5 years in he could decide if he chose wisely....is this the year of enlightenment?
Scott

[Sundetective]

Most people are not worried about having a Submarine but may like
Survival batteries IF THEY WERE RIGHT.

The question remains does the book I talk about exist or not ??
Did they outfit the E2 Submarine with Nickel Iron Cells or not ?

Did Mr. Edison start production on Submarine Ni-Fe batteries for the US Navy
Before the E2 explosion or not. Did they stop production on the
Detroit Electric Car batteries because of the 15 million dollar Navy contract ?

You want to talk about all the Ni-Fe Lies and con jobs.
Who ever explained them more than old Bill did?

It's old news. Everyone ran out of time for it.

I'm talkin bout the Lost Survival Technology that was in the E2.
So they vent it this time in the battery shed.
Big deal.

Bill Blake

[Sunking]

Bill this is just plain ole everyday silly. You are just trying to divert attention away from facts. The USN has never ever commissioned a USS with NiFe batteries and never will period. Since the 70's there are are 3 batteries approved end of story. Those are PDX-57, ASB-49, and LLL-69 all made by Exide. Example the PDX-59 is used on Ohio Class submarines. They are 2 volt, 10,000 AH cells weighing 210 pounds. The engine room used 209 of them in series.

The only other battery under consideration is a pure lead AGM VRLA battery being developed by the only approved manufacture Exide. They have been testing for 10 years and have another 5 to 10 years before getting the OK for DOD. That is a fact. Look it up yourself

There is no research or development on NiFe. Just a handful of companies and distributors trying to cash in on peoples ignorance. No utility or industry use them anymore because they are relics and cannot match price and performance of today's lead acid and lithium. Even mining and railroads quit using them which was their forte. Those industries now use wet NiCd large format cells.

You argument is on the same lines of 8-Track and Cassette tapes will make a comeback and be the standard recording media. It aint going to happen. Lithium and Lead Carbon at this time are the future. Lead Carbon in utility and RE applications, and lithium for mobile applications. For at least the next 30 years USS will be lead acid. It takes a minimum of 10 years of R&D plus another 20 years of real time data to get on a sub. NiFe is DOA in industry. It was buried with Edison.