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Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

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  • #46
    Please email me ... I can date those NiFe cells

    If you email me I can put you in contact with a dating expert for old Nickel Iron cells for the 1920s. Many of them are still in use after some rejuvenation (washing and refilling with electrolyte.) People are curious about their ancient cells and this question of dating keeps coming up.

    I will try to track down the dating codes to post here as well.

    Ian Soutar

    Comment


    • #47
      1) low temp performance
      Changhong_DeRating chart indicates this. (attached)

      2) I have a 700ah 48V bank (40 cells) on order, and wondering what, from your experience has been, are good charge controller set points for winter & summer. I've got the Morningstar MPPT 60, which has a completely user settable field.
      Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
      || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
      || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

      solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
      gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

      Comment


      • #48
        Lot temperature perfomance of NiFe cells

        Thanks for the Changhong data. That is for a normal mix of electrolyte. The guys in northern Canada are using a special concentration of KOH with no LiOH added. The curve for their batteries is optimal around zero degrees C. The guy doing the low temperature research says that at -40C his cells are only at 60% capacity.

        Do you know what electroyte mix was used for the low temperature performance curve set?

        Thanks for the data

        Ian Soutar


        Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
        1) low temp performance
        Changhong_DeRating chart indicates this. (attached)

        2) I have a 700ah 48V bank (40 cells) on order, and wondering what, from your experience has been, are good charge controller set points for winter & summer. I've got the Morningstar MPPT 60, which has a completely user settable field.

        Comment


        • #49
          Charge settings for winter, Ni-Fe specific charger

          Very interesting, there are no charge controllers that I know of that can re-adjust based on date, but this is a functionality that could easily be built in.

          The kind folks over at Apollo offered to update the firmware to say Ni-Fe when I spoke to them about charge settings. I bet they would be interested in hearing this "SEASONAL" setting, although now that I think about it, this problem is solved by using a temp sensor.

          Please check out the Xantrex Classic series charge controllers / diversion controllers (great for all you micro-hydro or wind powered folks) Note - this is a PWM charge controller

          Ni-Fe charge settings for C-Series:




          Full instruction manual - attached

          Comment


          • #50
            Cool ! Thx for the shot (and manual) I'll have to see what the XW6048 max input is, and if my Morningstar MPPT can go that high.

            Alkaline Batteries
            48V bank:
            Bulk = 67.2V
            Float = 62V

            Hmmm... XW6048 range is 44-64 VDC So I'll call a stop at 63V Can't fry a $3.5K inverter.

            Hmmm Hmmmm. MS TS MPPT 60
            custom settings - page 19, limits ?? there is a preset that will take me to 62VDC, and I think the battery limit is 72V My array is about 90V (5, "12V" panels in series )
            Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
            || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
            || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

            solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
            gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

            Comment


            • #51
              Xantrex XW info

              Here is the manual for the Xantrex XW 6048... How do you like using this inverter?
              I really like all the settings for the time-of-day grid-tie buy/sell operation. Some of my customers (and I) are very interested in the 4024.











              Originally posted by Mike90250 View Post
              Cool ! Thx for the shot (and manual) I'll have to see what the XW6048 max input is, and if my Morningstar MPPT can go that high.

              Alkaline Batteries
              48V bank:
              Bulk = 67.2V
              Float = 62V

              Hmmm... XW6048 range is 44-64 VDC So I'll call a stop at 63V Can't fry a $3.5K inverter.

              Hmmm Hmmmm. MS TS MPPT 60
              custom settings - page 19, limits ?? there is a preset that will take me to 62VDC, and I think the battery limit is 72V My array is about 90V (5, "12V" panels in series )

              Comment


              • #52
                I like the inverter, not a speck of trouble from it, starts the well pump, runs the welder, and keeps the fridge cold. the current old batteries are the weak spot.
                Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
                || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
                || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

                solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
                gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

                Comment


                • #53
                  Lithium Hydroxide now available -- Electrolyte Refresh

                  Hi everyone,

                  I just recieved 2kg of LiOH for mixing with the KOH in the Ni-Fe electrolyte.

                  (This may be one of the only places in the world where that actually makes sense)

                  If you are looking for some LiOH for an electrolyte refresh, or even for improving efficiency of your hydrogen generator, do let me know.

                  brandon@ironedison.com

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    More ni-fe research

                    Some old gov't reports on ni-fe batteries. Interesting ideas for cycle life test.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Glass Jars

                      Fanmail from a museum in Parko, Wy





                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Hello everyone,

                        I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

                        You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

                        Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Also, if anyone has any good documents on Nife batteries, can you add them to the library section?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Hi Greg - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

                            Looks impressive to me - of course my knowledge of batteries is very limited!

                            Good detailed and correct information is a real help to people looking to learn what is really available.

                            Good start and I wish you success!

                            Russ
                            [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Amazing wiki by Gregot

                              Truly impressive work you have done. I stumbled across your work the other day. Thank you for your efforts.

                              Have you read [B]Bottled Lightning[/B]? A must-read for Ni-Fe fans!


                              Originally posted by gregor88 View Post
                              Hello everyone,

                              I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

                              You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

                              Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                List of Ni-Fe resources

                                Historical info and retail sales of ni-fe batteries:
                                http://ironedison.com

                                US Patent No. 827,297
                                Alkaline Battery
                                Patented July 31, 1906
                                by Thomas Alva Edison
                                ( .PDF )
                                Download@FreePatentsOnline
                                http://tinyurl.com/nmskgz

                                Nickel-Iron Battery
                                From Wikipedia
                                http://tinyurl.com/lc7js

                                NiFe Safety Lamp
                                @Mine-Explorer
                                http://tinyurl.com/lrkf57

                                Charging Caving Batteries
                                Cambridge Underground 1979
                                pages 51-55
                                @Cambridge University Caving Club Archive Site
                                http://tinyurl.com/lm9zur

                                The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery
                                by the Technical Staff of the
                                Edison Storage Battery Company, 1924.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/mussc7

                                Some Notes on the Edison
                                Nickel-Iron Storage Battery
                                by F.M. Davis

                                ~ from :

                                Journal of the Western Society of Engineers,
                                Volume 9, Western Society of Engineers, 1904,
                                page 521.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/lelxx7

                                Edison's Struggle to
                                Build a Better Battery

                                ~ from :

                                Popular Science Magazine
                                December 1959, page 132.
                                Preview@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/mdqbov

                                Nickel/Iron Batteries

                                ~ from :

                                Electrochemical Power Sources :
                                Primary and Secondary Batteries
                                by Monty Barak
                                IET, 1980.
                                Preview@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/kqpj23

                                The Nickel-Iron Battery :
                                Another Enduring Tough One

                                ~ from :

                                Electric Motors & Control Techniques
                                by Irving M. Gottlieb
                                McGraw-Hill Professional, 1994,
                                pages 251-253.
                                Preview@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/lwq24a

                                Nickel-Iron Batteries

                                ~ from :

                                Understanding Batteries
                                by David Anthony James Rand
                                Royal Society of Chemistry, 2001,
                                page 131.
                                Preview@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/mb22rv

                                Nickel-Iron Batteries

                                ~ from :

                                The Principles Underlying Radio Communication
                                Issue 40 of United States Army Signal Corps
                                Radio Communication Pamphlet
                                by Richard Sheldon Ould,
                                Government Printing Office, 1922,
                                page 69.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/lrhry2

                                The Edison Battery

                                ~ from :

                                A Course in Electrical Engineering,
                                Volume 1, by Chester Laurens Dawes,
                                McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1920,
                                page 115.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/kwqbmg

                                Characteristics of Nickel-Iron Cells

                                ~ from :

                                Storage Batteries :
                                A Handbook on the Storage Battery
                                for Practical Men
                                by Christian John Hawkes
                                The William Hood Dunwoody
                                Industrial Institute, 1920,
                                page 39.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/mhl38o

                                Nickel-Iron Technology

                                ~ from :

                                Materials Technology in the
                                Near-Term Energy Program
                                U.S. National Research Council
                                National Academy of Science, 1974,
                                page 128.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/npm4to

                                Iron/Nickel Oxide Battery

                                ~ from :

                                Assessment of Research Needs
                                for Advanced Battery Systems
                                U.S. National Research Council
                                National Academy Press, 1982,
                                page 31.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/nfcvex

                                The Nickel-Iron or Edison Storage Cell

                                ~ from :

                                Practical Electricity
                                by Terrell Croft
                                McGraw-Hill, 1917,
                                page 263.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/l93lx9

                                Nickel-Iron Alkali Cell

                                ~ from :

                                Applied Electricity for Practical Men
                                by Arthur John Rowland
                                McGraw-Hill, 1916,
                                page 301.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/msaw3x

                                Nickel-Iron-Alkaline Cell

                                ~ from :

                                Electricity and Magnetism
                                International Textbook Co., 1914,
                                page 37.
                                Download@GoogleBooks
                                http://tinyurl.com/nn9o5b

                                Comment

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