Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

**isoutar** · 06-21-2011, 12:59 PM

Please email me ... I can date those NiFe cells

If you email me I can put you in contact with a dating expert for old Nickel Iron cells for the 1920s. Many of them are still in use after some rejuvenation (washing and refilling with electrolyte.) People are curious about their ancient cells and this question of dating keeps coming up.

I will try to track down the dating codes to post here as well.

Ian Soutar

**Mike90250** · 06-21-2011, 01:16 PM

1) low temp performance
Changhong_DeRating chart indicates this. (attached)

2) I have a 700ah 48V bank (40 cells) on order, and wondering what, from your experience has been, are good charge controller set points for winter & summer. I've got the Morningstar MPPT 60, which has a completely user settable field.

**isoutar** · 06-21-2011, 01:53 PM

Lot temperature perfomance of NiFe cells

Thanks for the Changhong data. That is for a normal mix of electrolyte. The guys in northern Canada are using a special concentration of KOH with no LiOH added. The curve for their batteries is optimal around zero degrees C. The guy doing the low temperature research says that at -40C his cells are only at 60% capacity.

Do you know what electroyte mix was used for the low temperature performance curve set?

Thanks for the data

Ian Soutar

Originally posted by Mike90250

1) low temp performance
Changhong_DeRating chart indicates this. (attached)

2) I have a 700ah 48V bank (40 cells) on order, and wondering what, from your experience has been, are good charge controller set points for winter & summer. I've got the Morningstar MPPT 60, which has a completely user settable field.

**Iron Bran** · 06-21-2011, 03:04 PM

Charge settings for winter, Ni-Fe specific charger

Very interesting, there are no charge controllers that I know of that can re-adjust based on date, but this is a functionality that could easily be built in.

The kind folks over at Apollo offered to update the firmware to say Ni-Fe when I spoke to them about charge settings. I bet they would be interested in hearing this "SEASONAL" setting, although now that I think about it, this problem is solved by using a temp sensor.

Please check out the Xantrex Classic series charge controllers / diversion controllers (great for all you micro-hydro or wind powered folks) Note - this is a PWM charge controller

Ni-Fe charge settings for C-Series:

Full instruction manual - attached

**Mike90250** · 06-21-2011, 04:03 PM

Cool ! Thx for the shot (and manual) I'll have to see what the XW6048 max input is, and if my Morningstar MPPT can go that high.

Alkaline Batteries
48V bank:
Bulk = 67.2V
Float = 62V

Hmmm... XW6048 range is 44-64 VDC So I'll call a stop at 63V Can't fry a $3.5K inverter.

Hmmm Hmmmm. MS TS MPPT 60
custom settings - page 19, limits ?? there is a preset that will take me to 62VDC, and I think the battery limit is 72V My array is about 90V (5, "12V" panels in series )

**Iron Bran** · 06-21-2011, 04:22 PM

Xantrex XW info

Here is the manual for the Xantrex XW 6048... How do you like using this inverter?
I really like all the settings for the time-of-day grid-tie buy/sell operation. Some of my customers (and I) are very interested in the 4024.

Originally posted by Mike90250

Cool ! Thx for the shot (and manual) I'll have to see what the XW6048 max input is, and if my Morningstar MPPT can go that high.

Alkaline Batteries
48V bank:
Bulk = 67.2V
Float = 62V

Hmmm... XW6048 range is 44-64 VDC So I'll call a stop at 63V Can't fry a $3.5K inverter.

Hmmm Hmmmm. MS TS MPPT 60
custom settings - page 19, limits ?? there is a preset that will take me to 62VDC, and I think the battery limit is 72V My array is about 90V (5, "12V" panels in series )

**Mike90250** · 06-21-2011, 05:24 PM

I like the inverter, not a speck of trouble from it, starts the well pump, runs the welder, and keeps the fridge cold. the current old batteries are the weak spot.

**Iron Bran** · 07-14-2011, 01:03 AM

Lithium Hydroxide now available -- Electrolyte Refresh

Hi everyone,

I just recieved 2kg of LiOH for mixing with the KOH in the Ni-Fe electrolyte.

(This may be one of the only places in the world where that actually makes sense)

If you are looking for some LiOH for an electrolyte refresh, or even for improving efficiency of your hydrogen generator, do let me know.

brandon@ironedison.com

**Iron Bran** · 07-14-2011, 01:10 AM

More ni-fe research

Some old gov't reports on ni-fe batteries. Interesting ideas for cycle life test.

**Iron Bran** · 07-14-2011, 01:14 AM

Glass Jars

Fanmail from a museum in Parko, Wy

**gregor88** · 07-14-2011, 11:39 AM

Hello everyone,

I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

**gregor88** · 07-14-2011, 11:41 AM

Also, if anyone has any good documents on Nife batteries, can you add them to the library section?

**russ** · 07-14-2011, 12:38 PM

Hi Greg - Welcome to Solar Panel Talk!

Looks impressive to me - of course my knowledge of batteries is very limited!

Good detailed and correct information is a real help to people looking to learn what is really available.

Good start and I wish you success!

Russ

**Iron Bran** · 07-14-2011, 12:53 PM

Amazing wiki by Gregot

Truly impressive work you have done. I stumbled across your work the other day. Thank you for your efforts.

Have you read Bottled Lightning? A must-read for Ni-Fe fans!

Originally posted by gregor88

Hello everyone,

I am from the project at http://opensourceecology.org/wiki/Nickel-iron_batteries . I know the page is pretty messy right now and I intend to clean it up when I get the chance.

You can see in the related pages section that I am thinking of making a spreadsheet which would calculate the lowest cost system that will meet the criteria of fully meeting all load demands except on 3 for an average of 1 day per 5 years. That is a good way to design a system.

Then I would swap in nife batteries for lead acid and calculate the total cost of ownership (including maintenance and replacement) at the 5 and 10 year mark. A good way to compare the 2 technologies financially.

**Iron Bran** · 07-14-2011, 12:56 PM

List of Ni-Fe resources

Historical info and retail sales of ni-fe batteries:

Terravolt | Solar Systems: Design, Tech Support, Project Management

http://ironedison.com

Terravolt, LLC: Solar Design, Consulting, Project Management, Tech Support, Permit assistance, Installer Referrals: Off-grid, grid-tied, DIY, EPC

US Patent No. 827,297
Alkaline Battery
Patented July 31, 1906
by Thomas Alva Edison
( .PDF )
Download@FreePatentsOnline

ALKALINE BATTERY.

http://tinyurl.com/nmskgz

Complete Patent Searching Database and Patent Data Analytics Services.

Nickel-Iron Battery
From Wikipedia

Nickel–iron battery - Wikipedia

http://tinyurl.com/lc7js

NiFe Safety Lamp
@Mine-Explorer

404 Not Found

http://tinyurl.com/lrkf57

Charging Caving Batteries
Cambridge Underground 1979
pages 51-55
@Cambridge University Caving Club Archive Site

404 Not Found

http://tinyurl.com/lm9zur

The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery
by the Technical Staff of the
Edison Storage Battery Company, 1924.
Download@GoogleBooks

The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery

http://tinyurl.com/mussc7

Some Notes on the Edison
Nickel-Iron Storage Battery
by F.M. Davis

~ from :

Journal of the Western Society of Engineers,
Volume 9, Western Society of Engineers, 1904,
page 521.
Download@GoogleBooks

Journal of the Western Society of Engineers

http://tinyurl.com/lelxx7

Edison's Struggle to
Build a Better Battery

~ from :

Popular Science Magazine
December 1959, page 132.
Preview@GoogleBooks

Popular Science

http://tinyurl.com/mdqbov

Popular Science gives our readers the information and tools to improve their technology and their world. The core belief that Popular Science and our readers share: The future is going to be better, and science and technology are the driving forces that will help make it better.

Nickel/Iron Batteries

~ from :

Electrochemical Power Sources :
Primary and Secondary Batteries
by Monty Barak
IET, 1980.
Preview@GoogleBooks

Electrochemical Power Sources

http://tinyurl.com/kqpj23

The variety and scope of primary and secondary battery applications in domestic goods and capital equipment for civilian and military uses has steadily grown over the years. Annual global sales of the battery business are exceeding £4000 million, encouraging a number of books on individual battery systems. This book is intended to bring together the key features of five electrochemical power sources. Outlining the historical background and basic principles of the direct conversion of electrochemical energy into DC electricity, this book also gives salient details of the manufacturing processes, performances under different conditions of operations and the services for which the batteries are mainly used. This books aims to provide information to graduate electrochemists, engineers working in universities and technical colleges, in Government and other technological institutions, and particularly those engaged in the development of portable power sources and in the design and use of equipment using these devices.

The Nickel-Iron Battery :
Another Enduring Tough One

~ from :

Electric Motors & Control Techniques
by Irving M. Gottlieb
McGraw-Hill Professional, 1994,
pages 251-253.
Preview@GoogleBooks

Electric Motors and Control Techniques

http://tinyurl.com/lwq24a

Publisher's Note: Products purchased from Third Party sellers are not guaranteed by the publisher for quality, authenticity, or access to any online entitlements included with the product.This book will show you how different types of motors operate and how electronic control devices can be used to improve efficiency in a wide range of applications.Get greater flexibility, reliability, and reduced energy consumption from household appliances to automobiles. This book will show you how different types of motors operate and how electronic control devices can be used to improve efficiency in a wide range of applications. You'll get in-depth, updated coverage of: Electric motor control applications; dc and ac motors; Digital motors; Commutator-type motors; Noncommutator-types motors; Electric vehicles.

Nickel-Iron Batteries

~ from :

Understanding Batteries
by David Anthony James Rand
Royal Society of Chemistry, 2001,
page 131.
Preview@GoogleBooks

Understanding Batteries

http://tinyurl.com/mb22rv

Batteries are becoming increasingly important in today's world of portable electronic devices, along with the need to store electricity derived from solar and other renewable forms of energy, and the desire to introduce electric and hybrid electric vehicles to reduce emissions. Understanding Batteries is a must for all those seeking a straightforward explanation of how batteries are constructed, their operation, and the factors determining their performance and life. Beginning with a brief history of the development of batteries and a discussion of their applications and markets, the book goes on to outline the basic terminology and science of batteries. The different types of primary (non-rechargeable) and secondary (rechargeable) batteries are then described and emphasis is given to the importance of matching the battery to the intended application. Examples are given to demonstrate how to define and prioritise the various criteria which comprise the battery specification. Throughout, the chemistry is kept as simple as possible. Understanding Batteries will appeal to a wide range of readers, including electrical equipment manufacturers and users, engineers and technicians, chemistry and materials science students, teachers and the interested battery user.

Nickel-Iron Batteries

~ from :

The Principles Underlying Radio Communication
Issue 40 of United States Army Signal Corps
Radio Communication Pamphlet
by Richard Sheldon Ould,
Government Printing Office, 1922,
page 69.
Download@GoogleBooks

The Principles Underlying Radio Communication

http://tinyurl.com/lrhry2

The Edison Battery

~ from :

A Course in Electrical Engineering,
Volume 1, by Chester Laurens Dawes,
McGraw-Hill Book Company, 1920,
page 115.
Download@GoogleBooks

A Course in Electrical Engineering

http://tinyurl.com/kwqbmg

Characteristics of Nickel-Iron Cells

~ from :

Storage Batteries :
A Handbook on the Storage Battery
for Practical Men
by Christian John Hawkes
The William Hood Dunwoody
Industrial Institute, 1920,
page 39.
Download@GoogleBooks

Storage Batteries

http://tinyurl.com/mhl38o

Nickel-Iron Technology

~ from :

Materials Technology in the
Near-Term Energy Program
U.S. National Research Council
National Academy of Science, 1974,
page 128.
Download@GoogleBooks

Materials Technology in the Near-term Energy Program

http://tinyurl.com/npm4to

Iron/Nickel Oxide Battery

~ from :

Assessment of Research Needs
for Advanced Battery Systems
U.S. National Research Council
National Academy Press, 1982,
page 31.
Download@GoogleBooks

Assessment of Research Needs for Advanced Battery Systems

http://tinyurl.com/nfcvex

The Nickel-Iron or Edison Storage Cell

~ from :

Practical Electricity
by Terrell Croft
McGraw-Hill, 1917,
page 263.
Download@GoogleBooks

Practical Electricity

http://tinyurl.com/l93lx9

Nickel-Iron Alkali Cell

~ from :

Applied Electricity for Practical Men
by Arthur John Rowland
McGraw-Hill, 1916,
page 301.
Download@GoogleBooks

Applied Electricity for Practical Men

http://tinyurl.com/msaw3x

Nickel-Iron-Alkaline Cell

~ from :

Electricity and Magnetism
International Textbook Co., 1914,
page 37.
Download@GoogleBooks

Electricity & Magnetism

http://tinyurl.com/nn9o5b