Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Robert1234]

Excellent

[Sunking]

There are a large host of alkaline material that react with water. Enjoy this you should get a bang out of it. ..

[inetdog]

I also hope that is not what the reference is suggesting as it'd be dangerous to the user AND the battery. The heat generation would be extreme. When I mix up electrolyte I start with a 50:50 mixture by weight of crushed ice and DI water, add the KOH Flake, add the LiOH powder, and cut to the final concentration with DI water again. The LiOH addition is the worst part. No matter how hard I try, some of the powder gets airborne and it'll run you out even with a dust mask on. If I weren't so cheap, I probably shoulda used a purchased LiOH solution.

I assume that the old chemistry class admonition about always adding acid to water instead of water to acid applies equally well to mixing a strong base like KOH.

If you add water to the flakes, you are likely to get a small steam explosion of the water, sending nasty stuff flying. Not to mention the local heating problem if you survive the first few moments.

[Robert1234]

I also hope that is not what the reference is suggesting as it'd be dangerous to the user AND the battery. The heat generation would be extreme. When I mix up electrolyte I start with a 50:50 mixture by weight of crushed ice and DI water, add the KOH Flake, add the LiOH powder, and cut to the final concentration with DI water again. The LiOH addition is the worst part. No matter how hard I try, some of the powder gets airborne and it'll run you out even with a dust mask on. If I weren't so cheap, I probably shoulda used a purchased LiOH solution.

[inetdog]

The need for electrolyte changes should essentially be the same in both the ChangHong and Zappworks cells assuming similar maintanence / use conditions. Not sure what you are referring to about "1/4 layer of potassium hydroxide over the bottom and refill with distilled water". If you can post that reference, maybe it will help explain.

That sounds frighteningly like advice to add the KOH powder the the dried cell and then add water, mixing them inside the battery. That sounds like an incredibly dangerous idea to me.

[Robert1234]

Back to the discussion...

After further reading, the two main sellers use the cheaper built Chinese jobs. Zappworks out of Montana are the only US manufacturers and use longer lasting construction.

As stated elsewhere, the scuttle butt is that Zappworks is reconditioning plates from old Edison cells & repackaging them in polyolefin cases. If true, you should take into account that Zappworks cells are already decades old. I doubt seriously that they are reloading the NiOH tubes but rather are simply acid cleaning them.

Yes, Edison's plate designs have stood the test of time, but to say the ChangHong design will not do the same may be yet undetermined and unfair.

I have found they require up to monthly addition of distilled water, like lead acid.

I water my Edison cells weekly. I don't think they will make it a month till I expose the top of the plates. Zappworks / ChangHong may give more headspace and permit less frequent watering. I do not know.

They have poor low temperature performance, so need to be in a heated area, and discharge on their own more, with 10% less efficiency than lead acid.

Yep on the low temp, self-discharge hasn't proven to be an issue in my solar useage as they are recharged most every day, and charge / discharge efficiency is definately inferior to LA.

The Ni-Fe good ones by Zapps need an electrolyte change every 20 years with a 1/4 layer of potassium hydroxide over the bottom and refill with distilled water.

The need for electrolyte changes should essentially be the same in both the ChangHong and Zappworks cells assuming similar maintanence / use conditions. Not sure what you are referring to about "1/4 layer of potassium hydroxide over the bottom and refill with distilled water". If you can post that reference, maybe it will help explain. If you've got kickout in the cell, it is probably not simply due to KOH unless you are wickedly cold. Could be precipitation however from common ion effect if you've been bodying up to keep "free KOH" in the appropriate range due to carbonate formation. Perhaps could also be oxidized species falling off the electrodes.

Side note... If you want to know why ChangHong suggests 30% KOH versus Edison's original ~20%, it minimizes the freezing point of the solution and thus gives the solution better low temperature performance. Simple as that.

http://koh.olinchloralkali.com/TechnicalInformation/PhaseDiagram.aspx

Probably good for 100 years....

That is the 60 million $$ question - or $10k question anyway. And that's probably the sales pitch that initiated this "debate".

"Good" is the word that is debateable in that sentence. I'd have to say if you're able to accept 25-50% of your original amp-hour capacity as a definition of "good", then I'll side with you on that statement. Guess it may have to be another 100 years before we know if we can do better.

[Robert1234]

Yes but Exide is one of the only places for 1-stop shopping. Otherwise you are in for months and months of searching for a lost cause. There is a reason Edison did not renew his patent, and Exide quit making them.

Not sure what exactly you are inferring. Edison could not "renew" his patent. It ran out. During Edison's days, patents only protected you for 17 years (you only get 20 years now). You cannot extend patents indefinately. Once 1918 rolled around, Edison had to rely on his technology extensions (new patents), trade secret knowledge with regards to manufacturing, and other barriers to entry into the market such as cost.

The flurry of patents in the 20's wasn't because the technology had so many problems as some might have you believe. It was quite the opposite. The technology was important to his company and a second series of patent extensions was desireable to keep competitors out.

In my opinion, Exide dropped the product line after they bought it because it did not really fit their business model. We were quickly becoming a "throw away" society at that time and people didn't want to pay 5x the price for a product that might last 10x as long. Still, since you might want that competitor out of the market space to extend your own sales, you buy them and shut them down. Why else buy the product line, then cease it's manufacture? Exide isn't stupid.

[Sunking]

I'm sure Exide has some unpublished trade secrets that they aquired with the purchase of Edison's technology, but do not fear - there is plenty we know about Edison's work that is not buried in the "Exide vaults".

Yes but Exide is one of the only places for 1-stop shopping. Otherwise you are in for months and months of searching for a lost cause. There is a reason Edison did not renew his patent, and Exide quit making them.

[Robert1234]

All the Edison's Papers are owned and buried deep in Exide archives. You can find bits a pieces on the web but it will take a Researches effort to find it all.

I'm sure Exide has some unpublished trade secrets that they aquired with the purchase of Edison's technology, but do not fear - there is plenty we know about Edison's work that is not buried in the "Exide vaults".

Before I go too much further, since I haven't taken the opportunity to say this yet on this forum, if all you are looking for is a simple storage media for your power needs that takes minimal attention then use LA or some other battery technology other than Ni-Fe. But, since this IS a Ni-Fe thread, if you are ready and willing to work it, understand it, and (yes) maintain it then Ni-Fe can be the right choice. I do not believe there is no "one size fits all" solution out there. The right choice depends on your individual needs and situation.

If you really want to learn about Ni-Fe technology, here's a listing of the majority of Edison's Patents dealing with his battery initiatives including electroplating, etc that you can start with. You need those references too if you want to truly understand his battery construction and the limits of his technology as it was constructed when he was alive. The "good stuff" starts in 1901, but I give you a couple other references where Edison was working with Pb, Cu, and Zn. Please keep in mind these are the Edison references only, and the information inside them certainly in no way makes you an expert in the application of Nickel Iron redox chemistry for power storage (even if you believe you understand it throroughly). It is the beginning of a journey, not the end. Keep researching, get your hands on some cells and learn for yourself lest you be lead astray by self proclaimed experts, vendors, etc. There has been lots more knowlege accumulated since 1927. Don't limit yourself to the century old information.

Edison Battery Patent Listings by Application Date:

Pat Num App Date
273,492 06/26/1882
274,292 08/07/1882
430,279 07/02/1889
684,204 10/31/1900
704,303 1/8/1901
704,304 3/1/1901
700,136 3/5/1901
700,137 3/5/1901
704,305 5/17/1901
678,722 6/20/1901
684,205 6/20/1901
692,507 6/20/1901
701,804 6/20/1901
704,306 6/20/1901
734,522 2/14/1902
727,117 10/3/1902
727,118 10/21/1902
721,682 11/28/1902
723,449 11/28/1902
723,450 11/28/1902
754,858 11/28/1902
754,859 11/28/1902
852,424 11/28/1902
831,269 3/5/1903
850,912 10/5/1903
857,041 10/5/1903
766,815 11/18/1903
821,622 6/29/1904
879,612 6/29/1904
880,484 6/29/1904
827,297 7/21/1904
785,297 8/16/1904
821,032 9/28/1904
817,162 9/29/1904
821,623 11/2/1904
821,624 11/2/1904
821,625 11/5/1904
879,859 3/1/1905
821,626 3/30/1905
821,627 3/30/1905
854,200 3/30/1905
857,929 3/30/1905
882,144 3/30/1905
860,195 4/28/1905
976,791 4/28/1905
936,433 10/14/1905
880,978 11/2/1905
880,979 11/2/1905
850,913 12/7/1905
914,342 12/7/1905
858,862 1/10/1906
964,096 3/19/1906
914,372 7/14/1906
898,404 11/3/1906
948,558 12/3/1906
936,525 1/18/1907
865,687 1/19/1907
865,688 1/19/1907
876,445 5/10/1907
914,343 5/17/1907
896,811 2/6/1908
940,635 2/6/1908
896,812 3/18/1908
999,762 3/20/1908
946,540 3/23/1908
976,792 5/24/1910
1,012,828 5/24/1910
1,207,382 5/24/1910
1,036,471 6/6/1910
1,115,463 6/17/1910
1,034,002 1/27/1911
1,034,003 1/27/1911
1,083,355 4/8/1911
1,083,356 4/8/1911
1,167,484 4/8/1911
1,016,875 7/28/1911
1,275,232 12/22/1911
1,073,107 1/11/1912
1,143,818 1/17/1912
1,167,485 4/30/1912
1,299,693 8/10/1914
1,198,426 8/31/1914
1,364,358 12/13/1915
1,266,780 1/20/1917
1,377,192 1/18/1919
1,377,193 1/23/1919
1,371,414 6/17/1919
1,359,972 6/21/1919
1,369,271 7/3/1919
1,369,272 8/5/1919
1,402,751 9/5/1919
1,379,088 9/16/1919
1,364,359 9/29/1919
1,379,089 10/4/1919
1,386,095 11/6/1919
1,410,391 12/2/1919
1,410,391 12/2/1919
1,377,194 6/16/1920
1,417,464 7/16/1920
1,425,184 8/26/1920
1,489,240 1/5/1921
1,488,480 9/28/1921
1,488,481 4/26/1922
1,651,196 5/14/1923
1,559,562 5/25/1923
1,599,121 2/26/1924
1,526,326 3/12/1924
1,649,579 7/24/1925
1,836,066 8/14/1926
1,723,609 10/12/1927

[moguitar]

After further reading, the two main sellers use the cheaper built Chinese jobs. Zappworks out of Montana are the only US manufacturers and use longer lasting construction. Even the Chinese ones have a minimum 15 year warranty. I have found they require up to monthly addition of distilled water, like lead acid. They have poor low temperature performance, so need to be in a heated area, and discharge on their own more, with 10% less efficiency than lead acid. Otherwise, they also may need inverters that will go lower in voltage. Amp hour sizing can be quite a bit less. My 780AH lead acid bank can be 250 AH Ni-Fe. I emailed zappworks with my garage system specs and asked about the sizing, physical and amp hour, and if I can use the same charge controller, charger, and inverters.
I'll report back what they say, but I won't be changing out my 14-L16Ss in three systems. I want to keep all my batteries the same, so that I can throw in one or more from another system to keep the main system operational while I go get new batteries 40 miles away. My main system would be basically impossible because of limited room and the fact it can get well below the 60*F minimum for Ni-Fe to get full power. The Ni-Fe good ones by Zapps need an electrolyte change every 20 years with a 1/4 layer of potassium hydroxide over the bottom and refill with distilled water. Probably good for 100 years, so definitely for someone thinking far ahead and has a LOT of money.
Here is another conversation going online about them from earlier this year;

http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146519.0

[Sunking]

All the Edison's Papers are owned and buried deep in Exide archives. You can find bits a pieces on the web but it will take a Researches effort to find it all.

[Sundetective]

Are there any other sources for nickel iron batteries?? Not just sales, but unbiased INFO. Like I said, you have to shop around and get all the info you can before laying out the cash.

Try getting a good notebook and ask Google and other search engines questions.
Keep a list of your questions and some notes.

For example:

Life cycles of Nickel Iron Battery

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_nf=3&gs_mss=Life%20cycle%20of%20Nickel%20Iron%20Battery&pq=lifespan%20of%20nickel%20iron%20battery&cp=11&gs_id=4p&xhr=t&q=Life%20cycles%20of%20Nickel%20Iron%20Battery&pf=p&tbo=d&sclient=psy-ab&oq=Life+cycles+of+Nickel+Iron+Battery&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=a984b0fe1242a17a&bpcl=38625945&biw=1006&bih=526

You may also want to start keeping some good Bookmarks.
Though there are things about Internet Explorer that can piss people off I don't see
any competition that is even close for breaking down and categorizing Bookmarks.
The Instant Favorites Bar across the top of your screen will also
Do You Solid.

Bill Blake

[moguitar]

Are there any other sources for nickel iron batteries?? Not just sales, but unbiased INFO. Like I said, you have to shop around and get all the info you can before laying out the cash.

[Sunking]

All I know about nickel-iron is mostly from http://www.ironedison.com and emails from them.

There lies the crux of your problem. Your only source is biased and has a vested interest.

[moguitar]

All I know about nickel-iron is mostly from http://www.ironedison.com and emails from them. They claim 25 year service life and I believe have a 20 year warranty. I can't change now anyway because of the bigger size for equivalent to my 8-L16S 24VDC main system and 4-L16S 12VDC garage/addition system. I built custom cabinets for them.
In originally researching from the Solar Living Sourcebook back in 1994, the longest life batteries then were sodium batteries, but they were expensive and big.
Anyone who is researching doing an off grid system should not only look at their pocketbook, but what is going to be the best long term investment. Less maintenance is nice, too.
The iron edison batteries look good and sound good from them, but they are salesmen and profiteers. I shopped around a lot for all my system components and looked at feedback from others as much as possible along with advice from experts like the people at Real Goods. Now, if thinking of nickel iron, I would do the same. Shop around, look at the experience of others, and try not to get hit by profiteers who so proliferate the alternative energy business.
I am also aware of the ridiculous huge trade imbalance with China, and think it should be even or stop.
If Iron Edison's claims are true, and they are US made, and if I was starting a new system, with enough money, I would go for them. If they are over-priced phonies from China---no. Personally, overseas shipping should revert back to sails IMHO.
My present L16Ss are made and recycled in the USA, and I don't mind checking specific gravity and putting in distilled water once a month in summer and once every two months in winter. To me, it is just part of being off grid independent since 1998.