Nickel Iron vs. Lead Acid - Off Grid battery debate

[Mike90250]

.... Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator. ......

Actually, Correction DAY should be WEEK, so I'm using 32 kwh a week, and in the same week, 79 kwh was used to recharge. I had to go through my logs, looking for a week that started full, and ended full.

I'm not getting 79 kwh daily, out of a 3kw array in winter !

I suppose there is some incidental daytime usage mixed in there, but at the most, 1KWh per day, or 7KWh total so my recharge efficiency goes up a fraction, 32kwh out, and 72kwh replacement.

So when I'm not in summer mode, pumping water for ag usage, I'm burning about 4.5 kwh per day, which includes 2, energy star fridges. (that's about 140kwh per month for city dwellers).

****

So, the lowest my bank (42 cells) has been, has been 46V, [ 1.095V per cell ] which was, with a 6KW inverter, nowhere the 130 amps the inverter could have possibly drawn. Say a 1Kw load, would be no more than 25A from a 800ah bank, should still be a pretty light load for them.

Both meters, in the Tristar, and the Xantrex, agree pretty well, along with my 2 DVM's, so I'm not too concerned about metering.

[Robert1234]

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Mike - Your answer is very dependant on the combination of the internal resistance of your cell(s) and your draw rate. The "harder" you pull on a NiFe cell, the lower the instantaneous voltage drop even when ignoring the power consumed. When you stop drawing power, the voltage will rise as the cells rest. So... I'm going to make an assumption that you may be drawing at a C5 rate.

On the cells I've reconditioned, I see a step change in "plateau" voltage dropping from 1.2v to 1.05v (passing quickly thru the 1.1v level) as I pull at the C5 rate. Refer to chart below. The black line is a C5 draw to 1.05v. The red line continues the C5 draw to 0.90v. I didn't include the C20 continued draw as the chart might get confusing. (Do your cells do the same?? I would think so, but I can't state that as a fact.) Under these conditions, I can only get about 60% of the power drawing C5 to 1.05 as compared to when I complete the tests and include the C20 rate draw to 0.9 volts.





That suggests you're draining your batteries at least by 60%, but if you're drain rate is more like a C20 vs C5, you will draing a fair piece north of 60% from your batteries. Your next statement suggests that might be the case.

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

That's pretty close in % efficiency to what I'm seeing on my little setup, but I know I'm "overstuffing" the batteries and that is when efficiency takes a nose dive. I also experience abnormal high water comsumption under those conditions. I've been as high as 65% recovery of what I put in when I decrease the number of panels feeding the cells.

I think I remember reading somewhere you are 800 amphr @ 48 volts? If so, that suggests a 38.4kwh storage capacity. Being able to draw out 32kwh (80%+) is pretty impressive.

Hope this helps.

[Sundetective]

Went to see The KW Kid for answers

I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

Robert, Bill,
can we stop bickering over whom is published where, and how many old patent #'s can be found, and
get onto the process of sharing data ?

If it continues of , it hurts ALL of us, and nobody benefits. Being smug, does not = winning.

Now, to get to MY issue - apparent low capacity and low recharge efficiency.
There are several charts I've found, that list capacity vs depth of discharge, but none seem to be listed as 20% discharge, 50%, 90% discharged.

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

So, now I'm hurting, but not fatally, I'm hauling firewood & generator fuel, but I still have the fridge and LP stove. I know Sunking cautioned about the NiFe recharge efficiency, but being enthusiastic, I listened to vendors, because at that time, there was not much user information on the web about them.

So lets get over this bickering, and get into sharing meaty data, ok ?

Mike, 'The KW Kid' wants to know was the 'Changhong Reseller' or Vendor as you say handing out
his free Amp Hour Meter when you got your Ni-Fe Cells.

What brand of Ah meter are you using?

Your Vendor has claimed that unlike Lead Acid Batteries you can forget trying to get any accurate ideas
of most anything just going by Voltage with the Ni-Fe Cells.

If he doesn't know after all these years - just who does?

ONLY when your Voltage is all the way UP or when your Voltage is all the way DOWN really matters.

Then your Meter tells you how many Amp Hours you used and from that point
your Discharge Percentage becomes simple math from then on.

In your case the Percentage sounds too high - it no Lie.

Your Charging RateS need to be discussed. You may be killing yourself.

IF your under the New Ni-Fe Warranty -

IF you drop below 1.0 Volts per Cell your Guarantee goes bye bye and becomes Void.

So Let's just call 1.0 Volts 'Dead Enough' !!

See old Bills Post # 46 for some of 'the old knowledge' he provides.

http://www.solarpaneltalk.com/showthread.php?4755-Batteries-on-the-way&p=58323#post58323

It's a dangerous game but at least one time you need to hit 1.0 to find out what's going on.

If it were me I might want to use a different meter for the experiment.

The KW Kid says that once he has your answers for me to come back with my hat in hand.

He said that I have to bring something so he can get 'tightened up'

if I wants his finest opinions.


Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

....

I am considering getting another set that won't have spent two years in storage (On some of the cells I received there was a noticeable dark bath-tub-like ring on the interior of the case, near the fill lines. What does that mean?)

I noticed all my cells developed that same dark ring shortly after I started using them, but vendor suggested I was seeing things. There was only about 2 months of factory sealed storage in my case, before they were filled and activated.

Robert, Bill,
can we stop bickering over whom is published where, and how many old patent #'s can be found, and
get onto the process of sharing data ?

If it continues of

"you are not humble enough for me to share with anyone else"

, it hurts ALL of us, and nobody benefits. Being smug, does not = winning.

Now, to get to MY issue - apparent low capacity and low recharge efficiency.
There are several charts I've found, that list capacity vs depth of discharge, but none seem to be listed as 20% discharge, 50%, 90% discharged.

So if I pull my cells down to 1.10V, is that 40% or 80% discharged ? Opinions ? Facts ?

Recharge efficiency, I'm seeing 32KWh used in a day, and 79KWh to recharge and complete a 2 hr absorb cycle. That's really rough in winter, where I easily see 4-9 days of solid cloud cover, and have to run generator.

So, now I'm hurting, but not fatally, I'm hauling firewood & generator fuel, but I still have the fridge and LP stove. I know Sunking cautioned about the NiFe recharge efficiency, but being enthusiastic, I listened to vendors, because at that time, there was not much user information on the web about them.

So lets get over this bickering, and get into sharing meaty data, ok ?

[ursus_maritimus]

Hmm... Edision patented the use of Li as a electrolyte additive in 1908. Work almost a century later using EDAX and XRD (tools Edison never even dreamed of) confirm this was a major advancement in reduction of iron poisoning.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0013468686800561

.

Is this reference likely to be intelligible to a layman with formal exposure to only basic college level chemistry and physics? I don't have an account with that site, and the journal is not on the list of electronic journals on the library system at my place of employment. I could attempt to track down a copy via interlibrary loan. As I said in an earlier post, I do have some Changhong cells in storage and finally have a secure place to set them up where no-one will accidentally come in contact with them.

I am curious as to the effects of different different concentrations of electrolyte (KOH and LiOH) but do not have the background to design a meaningful experiment (other than perhaps using the float oil on only some some cells within a string and seeing if that affects carbonation)
I do have some ability to perform as a highly trained monkey that has kept me employed the past 20 years. The cells are only half the capacity of the ones mike90250 and SteveC have, and I was considering configuring them as two parallel strings with one inverter to be more useful, but would consider two completely separate systems if I could learn something useful from that.

I am considering getting another set that won't have spent two years in storage (On some of the cells I received there was a noticeable dark bath-tub-like ring on the interior of the case, near the fill lines. What does that mean?)

[Sundetective]

Blah. Blah. Blah. Once again you deflect. Never have I said Edison's routines did not work - nor have I said Zapworks doesn't use the acid dip process to regen their cells. You seem to like to put words in people's mouths.

You are correct in one respect - and I'll answer that burning question you so want to know...

I only have 24 Edison cells - a relatively modest amount from which to work. I move the spares in and out of the chain as I discover new regen techniques but it has become obvious to me that with my desired power requirements, even self-reconditioned NiFe cells will top the 7 grand mark to get the storage I want. Because of that these Ni-Fe cells will only be used as a disaster backup for LA sets. I was hoping that there might be some wisdom out there what could prove me wrong.

I could really care less if you "can come up with any time" for me. I should have followed my initial instinct and just left this thread to rot. This could have been a thread where people could share personal experiences to help each other out, but you have poisoned it like every other Ni-Fe thread out on the web with the same old "veneer of knowledge" story line you so love to tell. Yours is a regurgitation of old published information with a "shuck and jive" routine and an attack as a retort if someone's information does not fit your story line. Attempts at a discussion with you are pointless and will always be less than productive.

Now would Russ allow me to talk like that!!
We are just cut from different cloth and I hurt some people that needed hurting is all.
It was and remains my pleasure. I am confident because I know that I did the work.

The thread did and will continue to do well without either one of us for that matter but a few fans
would hate to see me go so I try to chip in a few paragraphs of info that is ALL backed up by the various experts.

This as it quickly presses to 25,000 Views.

Zapp Works has sent me a whole Lot of email over time (in writing) how old Bill Likes it.
They all have over time.

Where have you published my man?
Enjoy.


Bill Blake

Edit:

Robert, Please don't go! You can teach everyone and I won't say a thing.

Not a peep about anything you say for 3 months. Longer if you wish.
I've gone up to 6 to 7 months here without saying a single word.

This "he is blind to the improvements in the technology"
has me fascinated.

Are you talking about the Chinese Changhong Ni-Fe Cells like Mike has invested in?
Or something new in your mind?

Even after conversations with 'Changhong and the Electric Indian' themselves
I still don't know what is better about them now.
But I'm old.

Their top Ni-Fe salesman in America, for years now, told me that he doesn't know what's better about them either.
Deep down he's an Edison fan but may just not know any better.

Keep in mind dat even though he is the 'Father of Chinese Ni-Fe Cells in America'
he is getting older now as well. I have no doubt. He is Listening now.
Hit it.


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

Blah. Blah. Blah. Once again you deflect. Never have I said Edison's routines did not work - nor have I said Zapworks doesn't use the acid dip process to regen their cells. You seem to like to put words in people's mouths.

You are correct in one respect - and I'll answer that burning question you so want to know...

I only have 24 Edison cells - a relatively modest amount from which to work. I move the spares in and out of the chain as I discover new regen techniques but it has become obvious to me that with my desired power requirements, even self-reconditioned NiFe cells will top the 7 grand mark to get the storage I want. Because of that these Ni-Fe cells will only be used as a disaster backup for LA sets. I was hoping that there might be some wisdom out there what could prove me wrong.

I could really care less if you "can come up with any time" for me. I should have followed my initial instinct and just left this thread to rot. This could have been a thread where people could share personal experiences to help each other out, but you have poisoned it like every other Ni-Fe thread out on the web with the same old "veneer of knowledge" story line you so love to tell. Yours is a regurgitation of old published information with a "shuck and jive" routine and an attack as a retort if someone's information does not fit your story line. Attempts at a discussion with you are pointless and will always be less than productive.

[Edit to Add Pics as Requested]

As I inferred above, I believe I should be through with this thread but for those that might be interested, I will depart by sharing my research setup that supports the main solar project being installed on our land in the NC mountains.



3 KWatt of Evergreen Panels



5 KWatt-Hr of Ni-Fe storage



And a little test area where I do some individual characterization studies of the cells that are the subject of this thread.


I post you these pics not just because I was challenged as Bill's opinion of me will not affect my life whatsoever. Rather I post them so that you by your knowing my equipment is real (much more real than "old Bill" would like you to believe) you also have some reason to believe my words of encouragement to you are also real.

I came searching for people interested in discussing this technology so as to improve and optimize it's utilization for our needs but unfortunately ran into the technology's "abominable noman" that wants to dominate all threads of this subject. And you wonder why people that actually have this technology just walk away from threads he gets involved with? I've worked in chemicals and chemical research all my life. Attitudes like that are a cancer to improvements.

Don't believe just the vendors nor the naysayers nor even me. While "Old Bill" is full of historical information and as such can be a good resource, he also appears to be so jaded for some reason I do not know that he is blind to the improvements in the technology. "His Excellency" Sir Thomas Edison was not a god, nor even was he the original discoverer of Ni-Fe technology. He simply was a man that studied it, improved on it, and made $$ on it as many more mortal men will continue to do after him.

I leave you with this... f you are considering the Ni-Fe storage route for power storage, seek out those that actually use the technology as their input to you will be invaluable.

[Sundetective]

That didn't answer my question so until otherwise affirmed that statement simply falls into the category of one man's opinion. Perhaps it is right. Perhaps not.

The need to tear a cell down so as to recondition it should in my opionion be a complete last resort when all else fails. I'm assuming that you have never personally opened an Edison cell up for reconditioning and tried to put it back together or I suspect you would not be so high on that "magic bath" procedure you reference. Neither have I as I have not found it necessary. An aquantainace of mine that HAS done the acid dip procedure did not get any better results in performance renewal than I am getting the way I do it. Additionally, if you open the cans up you now have the issue of putting the cans back together without leaving an anodic region for massive corrosion attack in the container (enter Zappworks with their poly shells).

I have reconditioned the bulk of my own Edison cells by a procedure that is low temperature (< 40 C), non-acidic, and non-invasive (don't take em apart) but I will state up front I have not had the chance to work with a ChangHong cell. I think it should work for them too, but truth be know I have not spoken to anyone that has a ChangHong cell that needs reconditioning. I would like to have that opporturnity to see if this new procedure will span over to the new cells if anyone out there has one they would like me to work on.

Perhaps your friend didn't follow Edison's Patent properly. Has your friend Published or Posted the results in a forum?
Are you claiming Edison wasted his time with both Ni-Fe reconditioning Patents published in 1924?
Edison, his Lawyers and his staff were all wrong after 20 years since they published the first Ni-Fe reconditioning Patent in 1904?

Are you claiming that Zapp Works did or did not have to separate the positive and the negative electrodes for the reconditioning process?
Keep in mind that I have talked with them.

What does Zapp Works switching to plastic cases have to do with the reconditioning process other than more waging the dog?

Have you published this new in situ method of yours?

Are you referring to the reverse charging method designed for nothing but surface deposits?

Changhong publishes (right now) that their plates are welded together and are therefore not designed for the Edison reconditioning methods
Published in 1924. Do you claim Changhong says otherwise?

My Ni-Fe Cells from 40 years ago were new, Russian made batteries and didn't need any work.
When I gave them to a relative years later they were still good.
That's why I don't talk about them or make any personal claims.

Since you do claim so much personally how about posting some pictures. How many old Edison Cells do you have?
Four?

I'm afraid that unless you come up with something solid this has to be the last time that I can come up with any time for you.

Do you have any previous Posts anywhere or did you just recently appear knowing more than Edison as you claim?


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

Better yet.....

That didn't answer my question so until otherwise affirmed that statement simply falls into the category of one man's opinion. Perhaps it is right. Perhaps not.

The need to tear a cell down so as to recondition it should in my opionion be a complete last resort when all else fails. I'm assuming that you have never personally opened an Edison cell up for reconditioning and tried to put it back together or I suspect you would not be so high on that "magic bath" procedure you reference. Neither have I as I have not found it necessary. An aquantainace of mine that HAS done the acid dip procedure did not get any better results in performance renewal than I am getting the way I do it. Additionally, if you open the cans up you now have the issue of putting the cans back together without leaving an anodic region for massive corrosion attack in the container (enter Zappworks with their poly shells).

I have reconditioned the bulk of my own Edison cells by a procedure that is low temperature (< 40 C), non-acidic, and non-invasive (don't take em apart) but I will state up front I have not had the chance to work with a ChangHong cell. I think it should work for them too, but truth be know I have not spoken to anyone that has a ChangHong cell that needs reconditioning. I would like to have that opporturnity to see if this new procedure will span over to the new cells if anyone out there has one they would like me to work on.

[Sundetective]

Can you please present your findings where these cells cannot be revived?

Better yet.
Where did you hear the Changhong Ni-Fe Cells were ever revived even one time in history?
How do you separate the Chinese Elements and then get them back together again -
I asks.


Bill Blake

[Robert1234]

....Especially since the Chinese Changhong Ni-Fe batteries use welded plates that CAN NOT take advantage of the Magic Ni-Fe Elements Revival Baths that Mr. Edison and his gang worked so hard and so long to perfect for around a couple of decades.

Can you please present your findings where these cells cannot be revived?

[Sundetective]

I mixed mine in a 5 gal bucket, with about 4 gallons of distilled water. I used a drywall mud mixer on a battery drill, and spun it up, and dumped in the flake, preventing a "clump" of flake from forming is key, if you keep it seperated, it just heats the water, if it clumps together, it WILL start boiling. Only took about 45 seconds to stir it in, and then wait and wait till it's cool enough to put into the battery. And once mixed and hot, don't try to move the bucket of boiling hot "lye" !

The 850X Manual was nice but we need More.

Take another look at The Edison Alkaline Storage Battery

by The Technical Staff of the Edison Storage Battery Company

dated 1924.

Go to the 6th paragraph on Page 35.

Now you know all that 10 - 15 - 20 years was Always shuck

and Jive.

http://www.lizardfire.com/hydroxy/The_Edison_Alkaline_Storage_Battery.pdf

In light of what Mr. Edison HAD to say (and swear to) in order to get his various Patents

(I would guess that's the ONE and ONLY reason we Ever heard anything)

changing the Ni-Fe Electrolyte sooner rather than later is going to pay, old Bill say.

Especially since the Chinese Changhong Ni-Fe batteries use welded plates that CAN NOT take

advantage of the Magic Ni-Fe Elements Revival Baths that Mr. Edison and his gang worked

so hard and so long to perfect for around a couple of decades.

If only your Ni-Fe batteries can perform like this for well over 30 years!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGeKXD12sto&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvIydHPhb98

Just keep mixin - till you just can't mix it no more


Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

I also hope that is not what the reference is suggesting as it'd be dangerous to the user AND the battery. The heat generation would be extreme. When I mix up electrolyte I start with a 50:50 mixture by weight of crushed ice and DI water, add the KOH Flake, add the LiOH powder, and cut to the final concentration with DI water again. The LiOH addition is the worst part. No matter how hard I try, some of the powder gets airborne and it'll run you out even with a dust mask on. If I weren't so cheap, I probably shoulda used a purchased LiOH solution.

I mixed mine in a 5 gal bucket, with about 4 gallons of distilled water. I used a drywall mud mixer on a battery drill, and spun it up, and dumped in the flake, preventing a "clump" of flake from forming is key, if you keep it seperated, it just heats the water, if it clumps together, it WILL start boiling. Only took about 45 seconds to stir it in, and then wait and wait till it's cool enough to put into the battery. And once mixed and hot, don't try to move the bucket of boiling hot "lye" !

[ursus_maritimus]

I purchased a 24 volt set of the ChangHong TN cells last year to play with at my weekend place. Since then most of my spare time has been been reconstructing and rewiring an unused barn on the property, including a secure section to house these. According to one of the ChangHong manuals I downloaded about two years ago (linked from microsec.net website) they can be stored dry for 4 years. (We'll see...) I stored the KOH flakes in 1.9 litre mason jars evacuated with a food-saver sealer with widemouth mason adapter. (The LiOH was trickier to seal) Was planning to fill the cells this coming spring but discovered this thread suggesting problems with electrolyte from China?

My interest in these is the promise of being able to shut them off for months at a time without irreparable harm. I am many years away from thoughts of (voluntary) retirement so must be prepared to move and convert the old family home back to an occasional "summer cottage" again if/when necessary. (Thus a serious lead-acid system seemed a bad idea)

My location is not off-grid (although grid-off is a too frequent occurrence on the island where the old homestead is located). My plan was to get a 24 volt inverter and use the charger to float charge these as a backup source. I have since decided against a 24 volt system since the cells are too hard to locate and replace; at 12 V if some cells go bad I can reconfigure the best of the remaining cells.

I am not the slightest bit interested in any promises of "warranty" so am willing to experiment with these if any can suggest a useful long-term experiment(s). I do have some of the mythical unicorn oil (ie float oil), but probably not enough for all the cells long term if it is fact no longer available.

Any suggestions for good sources of replacement electrolyte or the chemicals required to do the electrolyte testing would be welcome.

[Sundetective]

I assume that the old chemistry class admonition about always adding acid to water instead of water to acid applies equally well to mixing a strong base like KOH.

If you add water to the flakes, you are likely to get a small steam explosion of the water, sending nasty stuff flying. Not to mention the local heating problem if you survive the first few moments.

It looks like it's going to take fairly frequent (at least as often as was mentioned in the 1924 Edison Ni-Fe Batteries Book)
Electrolyte Changes - don't it.

Or fairly frequent Electrolyte Filtering as was talked about in

The Submarine Boat Type
of
Edison Storage Battery

by

Miller Reese Hutchison, E.E., Ph.D.
in 1915

Chief Engineer and Personal Representative of
His Excellency,
Thomas A. Edison

So until the next generation of Ni-Fe Cells is designed ( just a combination of OLD Edison ideas and old materials)

MORE Electrolyte mixing containers inside of a small swimming pool with just several inches of cool water that is being continuously
flushed with more cool water

(and drained with drain holes in the side) like a sink

will take much of the jive right out of the act.

Then listen to how good Changhong batteries did at 40 grams of LiOH per Liter (in writing) and don't fall victim to the greedy
USA salesman
and their 20 (or so) grams of LiOH per Liter.

Get Fresh, high quality chemicals and do a Carbonates Test IMMEDIATELY on enough for just one Cell.

You needs the test kit anyway - don't you ... as was said by The KW Kid.

You see just like in 'It's A Wonderful Life' ... It never really was as bad as you thought.

Now your over 23,000 views.


Bill Blake