NiFe USA series batteries?

[Sundetective]

Cool, thank you very much, Bill The pieces are clicking together now, I've seen comments from BillBlake on Fieldlines, and heard references to "Old Bill" elsewhere as well. So, I'm guessing that you're one and the same then? Pleasure to meet your virtual acquaintance, and sorry that I was frustrated earlier :/

And, that would make total sense. As I was reading and doing research, I was seeing all this data about how good the technology was. So it was really confusing to me about how the batteries could be bad. But makes a lot more sense now.

So if my research is correct, one of the big problems with the LiOH is if it's exposed to air, because it consumes carbon dioxide from the air, and kind of renders it mostly pointless for the NiFe setup, correct? So that's why the "getting fresh, double-bag, and store in Mylar" is the important key in the process there.

Doing a google search for the string "site:changhongbatteries.com pdf" I was able to find this doc on NiFe batteries, but it doesn't look like what Bill was referencing. I'll keep searching and see what I can find.

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/down/index/0d4b6f9509fcbf3c7e9bbb4d7821e49f.pdf

I found this thread as I've been digging through stuff, and it's got a lot of good info in it: http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146754.0

So, from how it sounds, it almost seems like we need to find someone who can make the NiFe batteries to the original Edison specs, and then they'd be a lot more worthwhile? Especially if we could get the components for the electrolyte around where they actually cost, instead of the crazy markups it looks like it sounds are happening?

I did find this while doing some more searching: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...g=en&region=US but it's more like 45 cents per gram, rather than a penny a gram. Plus I don't know that there's a way to tell how well it was packaged, etc.?

For years a Company in the USA was begging to get rid of

ACS Certified, Reagent Grade Lithium Hydroxide for 9 cents

per gram in little 500 gram sealed plastic drums.
99++% purity with a Lab Report.

In other words 'LeRoy Grade'.
$10 shipping on the first one.
Then a duece for each additional.
Man said 'come and gets it'.

So the sales hustlers were pushing garbage the whole time.
Just goes to show you.

What has happened or what the deal is today I don't know
because there are other interests.

A metric ton is a million grams on one little pallet.
Go to China waving a ten thousand dollar bill
(penny per gram) and see how long before somebody Love you.
Buy enough pallets and they will pick you up at the airport
with a stretch Limo, mini bar and a call girl for the day.

Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

Haha, you never know I do like being a computer nerd, and sometimes it comes in handy when you're trying to track down elusive information...


Out of random curiosity, does anyone know about Zappworks? I saw a guy named Hank Muntzer mentioned in this thread: http://www.permies.com/t/13862/energ...Iron-Batteries and tried to track him down. Apparently he works for (owns?) a company named Zappworks, which makes NiFe batteries: http://www.bizapedia.com/mt/ZAPP-WORKS-INC.html http://zappworks.com/index.htm

The prices are more than others, but maybe if they're better (eg., actual nickel, replaceable parts, disassemble-able, etc.,) it'd be worth it?

There was a thread that started about Hank at Zapp Works.
Brandon Williams from Iron Edison, John D'Angelo from
BeUtilityFree and I all got involved and the thread became a
Melee. It was fun.

Google: Bill Blake at Survival Monkey.

Hank's Partner Stephen Ellis sent me several key Documents that they created about Nickel Iron Batteries several years ago.
I doubt much of it is being released today. I didn't agree with every word however those fellows were defintely into some heavy duty
understanding about NiFe and belong in the LeRoy Category of Life.

Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

Haha, you never know I do like being a computer nerd, and sometimes it comes in handy when you're trying to track down elusive information...


Out of random curiosity, does anyone know about Zappworks? I saw a guy named Hank Muntzer mentioned in this thread: http://www.permies.com/t/13862/energ...Iron-Batteries and tried to track him down. Apparently he works for (owns?) a company named Zappworks, which makes NiFe batteries: http://www.bizapedia.com/mt/ZAPP-WORKS-INC.html http://zappworks.com/index.htm

The prices are more than others, but maybe if they're better (eg., actual nickel, replaceable parts, disassemble-able, etc.,) it'd be worth it?

Main ting right now is go to YouTube (the knower of all things) and listen to

'Take Your Time Do it Right'.

You can go wild with a veneer of data.

It all forms a NiFe Tapestry of context knowledge. You needs more.
With the Chinese they like you to learn how to cross-reference their
different authors.

How about the 2008 Changhong Manual at www.nickelcells.com.
Do they have more?

You wants the secrets of water consumption so you don't have to play
somebodies sweetboy?

Find the brochure (catalog),

Changhong NF-S Series Nickel Iron Battery for Solar PV Application.

How about the 22 page version before they sweetboy-ed us to this new
11 page deal. We need to cross ref that NiFe Internal Resistance Lingo
that
Dr. Vinnie had cut out. The devil.

Maybe you can get something out of that

www.pdf.directindustry.com website.

After you knocks this Leg out there will be another taste -
Lord willing.

Bill Blake

[smily03]

I guess, this is something I have to take into consideration.

I'm going to have a 24 volt system.

Four T105RE's will cost me $500 from my local battery supplier. At 80% discharge, they're supposed to last 1000 cycles, and will provide me with 180 aH. That would equate to $0.50 per cycle, or $2.77 per aH.

A set of NiFe batteries from Zappworks will set me back $7500 plus shipping. If we go by the Chonghang documentation, (at least their) NiFe batteries are supposed to last 1000 cycles at 80% discharge. They should provide 200 aH. That would equate to $7.50 per cycle, or $37.50 per aH.

But, other places you read that discharging down to 80% won't shorten the life of the NiFe batteries.

So I guess the key question is - will good NiFe batteries last more than 1,000 cycles at a good discharge? If so, how long *should* they last in the real world?

If they only last 1,000 cycles real-world, would that mean that the cells are totally shot at that point and need totally replaced, or just an electrolyte change, etc.? (Assuming they've been properly maintained all along, etc.)

I guess that's my ultimate goal with this. If the life of NiFe is ultimately the same, or similar to, LA, then budgetarily (even though not environmentally,) it makes sense to do LA, because I could buy 15 sets of LA for the price of NiFe, and end up with relatively the same aH.

Realistically, if I do LA, I'm going to plan for a 20% discharge cycle, because the T105RE's are supposed to have 4k cycles at that light discharge level. But, that only gives me 45 aH, which isn't much - I'd need 5 strings of 20% LA to equal one string of 80% NiFe. So at that point, it would be:
$2500 for LA, 4000 cycles, 225 aH. That equals $0.625 per cycle, and $11.11 per aH. Theoretically, they should last 11 years.

If NiFe is supposed to last "a lifetime," let's call it 50 years to be conservative. That would be about 18,000 cycles, give or take. So we'd have
$7500 for the batteries, 200 aH. That would be $0.42 per cycle, and still $37.50 per aH.

But, you also have to take in consideration the electrolyte changes. The Iron Edison folks said that electrolyte changes cost about 5% of the original batteries. And depending on where you get your info, electrolyte changes could be as often as once a year, or 1000 cycles, or up to 20 years. If we take the worst-case scenario, that would be $350 per year, over 50 years, so an extra $19,000 in electrolyte changes. Best-case scenario would be realistically once every 10 years probably, so an extra $3500. So best-case scenario would be a total cost of $11,000, which would be $0.61 per cycle, and $55 per aH.

So, comparing the two, that would require 5 sets of LA ($12,500) to equal one set of NiFe. So if we compare them at that point, we would have -

NiFe: $0.61 per cycle, and $55 per aH
LA: $0.62 per cycle, and $55.55 per aH


So, unless some of my assumptions are wrong, you'll end up paying about the same long-term cost-wise. However, you'll be better for the environment with NiFe over LA. Are my assumptions in all of this correct?

The one thing that I'm not taking into consideration, obviously, is the price difference in the solar equipment required for the different battery types, or the cost of time in keeping LA batteries at the proper specific gravity.

[smily03]

This thread is a really good read as I've been digging through it as well: http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/...146754.27.html

[smily03]

Something else I'm curious about - the amount of water that's used up. According to some of the original Edison documents, overcharging doesn't do anything but make the water bubble out, and the official charge rate is for 7 hours at the "normal rate" when fully discharged, and proportionally less if the battery is less discharged.

http://ironedison.com/images/products/Iron%20Edison/Edison%20Manual%20of%20Storage%20Battery%20Practice%20%28c%29%201914_.pdf

[smily03]

Haha, you never know I do like being a computer nerd, and sometimes it comes in handy when you're trying to track down elusive information...


Out of random curiosity, does anyone know about Zappworks? I saw a guy named Hank Muntzer mentioned in this thread: http://www.permies.com/t/13862/energ...Iron-Batteries and tried to track him down. Apparently he works for (owns?) a company named Zappworks, which makes NiFe batteries: http://www.bizapedia.com/mt/ZAPP-WORKS-INC.html http://zappworks.com/index.htm

The prices are more than others, but maybe if they're better (eg., actual nickel, replaceable parts, disassemble-able, etc.,) it'd be worth it?

[Sundetective]

Found a chunk of blue text saying DOWNLOAD, but it's not an actual link. I viewed page source, and it's not assigned to anything,

So Mike it sounds like 'The NiFe Information War has begun'.

It was foretold by Obi-Wan Kenobi, Dr. Vinnie Boombatz and others.

Perhaps smily03 is 'The One' and Karma sent him to do

Computer Battle with the machines just before it's ALL erased

from the Next Generation.

Thanks,

old Bill Blake

[smily03]

I think this might be it? Not sure if it's the 2014 version or not, but it's at least promising looking: http://nickelcells.com/pdf/manuf/Ni-...r%20manual.pdf

[smily03]

Cool, thank you very much, Bill The pieces are clicking together now, I've seen comments from BillBlake on Fieldlines, and heard references to "Old Bill" elsewhere as well. So, I'm guessing that you're one and the same then? Pleasure to meet your virtual acquaintance, and sorry that I was frustrated earlier :/

And, that would make total sense. As I was reading and doing research, I was seeing all this data about how good the technology was. So it was really confusing to me about how the batteries could be bad. But makes a lot more sense now.

So if my research is correct, one of the big problems with the LiOH is if it's exposed to air, because it consumes carbon dioxide from the air, and kind of renders it mostly pointless for the NiFe setup, correct? So that's why the "getting fresh, double-bag, and store in Mylar" is the important key in the process there.

Doing a google search for the string "site:changhongbatteries.com pdf" I was able to find this doc on NiFe batteries, but it doesn't look like what Bill was referencing. I'll keep searching and see what I can find.

http://www.changhongbatteries.com/down/index/0d4b6f9509fcbf3c7e9bbb4d7821e49f.pdf

I found this thread as I've been digging through stuff, and it's got a lot of good info in it: http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php?topic=146754.0

So, from how it sounds, it almost seems like we need to find someone who can make the NiFe batteries to the original Edison specs, and then they'd be a lot more worthwhile? Especially if we could get the components for the electrolyte around where they actually cost, instead of the crazy markups it looks like it sounds are happening?

I did find this while doing some more searching: http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/...g=en&region=US but it's more like 45 cents per gram, rather than a penny a gram. Plus I don't know that there's a way to tell how well it was packaged, etc.?

[Mike90250]

...Please let me know if you find any Nickel Iron Downloads at
www.changhongbatteries.com...

Found a chunk of blue text saying DOWNLOAD, but it's not an actual link. I viewed page source, and it's not assigned to anything,

[Sundetective]

do you have a link handy for that one ? A quick search just gets hundreds of ChiCom hits (and this forum)

The old Changhong Batteries Support Documents were nice where I
could copy and paste the old-fashioned way.
Not any more.

I believe they may have started some other slick practices as well.

However someone that is slick with computers can probably
blow right past them.
Someone like Doctor Vinnie Boombatz for instance.

Please let me know if you find any Nickel Iron Downloads at

https://www.changhongbatteries.com

The sly devils.

My attempt using the mobile device version of their website
led to nowheresville.
Like I said it will be next week sometime until I get back to a computer.

Bill Blake

[Sundetective]

You can name thousands of products that fit that description. As PT Barnum said: There is a Sucker Born Every Minute.

They were pretty straightforward about Limitations and how to wake
the f--k up and get some real life out of NiFe.

They WERE NOT the jokers hiding the Instruction Manuals, making up
their own manuals, planting Lies and fishwife tales, etc.

Like old Bill or hate da man ... let's face it. The game was forever changed
when he rode in on their a-s.

A long time ago one of their top Battery Doctors at Changhong told me that
he was reading all the posts and felt his Company, Changhong Batteries
was telling us too much.

He had already had them edit out some stuff I hit him on in the USA version
of the Solar PV Brochure.

Now I'm afraid the real big cuts are coming down and we will have

More LOST Knowledge on our hands unless someone acts fast.

Old Bill never had to get slick with computers.
My Company had people that did everything for me.
I was the cheerleader and made tapes with notes.

If the right guy ever came along your weak, prissy Lithium is a joke
compared to what could and should be for Off Grid with NiFe.

How many Decades do you need to hear all the Tales of Woe - daddy-o ?

Spare us that haggard Patent story please. The Patents could ONLY Last
17 years back then. PERIOD.

It's a Copyright that could be renewed and renewed.

In spite of everything NiFe WAS THE MOST PROFITABLE INVENTION

The Legendary Thomas A. Edison ever had.

Let dat be a Lesson to you.

Bill Blake

[Mike90250]

Mike,

They normally have the downloads at their website: www.changhongbatteries.com ...

Thanks

[Sunking]

When you mention that the China battery company is the only one that's honest about how bad the technology is compared to the alternatives, it makes me wonder - if it's so bad, why do they keep making them?

You can name thousands of products that fit that description. As PT Barnum said: There is a Sucker Born Every Minute.