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Lithium-ion multiple batteries on parallel - same challenge as Lead Acid or not?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ampster View Post
    Thank you. You confirmed my understanding that the balancing on my Tesla starts somewhere between 80 and 90% of what they show on the screen as 100%. In actuality that 100% is probably only 90% of full capacity. You can call that middle balancing if you like..
    You clearly do not understand terminology.

    EV manufactures can do what no consumer can possible do. They can match the cells to within 1% because they have hundreds of thousands of cells to work with and DO NOT use LFP cells. All anyone has to do is wire all the cells in PARALLEL and walk away 24 hours and they are MIDDLE BALANCED perfectly. Now if you want to TOP BALANCE, you would then leave them in Parallel and charge them to 4.2 volts until current tapers to 3% of C. If you want to BOTTOM BALANCE you discharge them to 3.0 volts.

    TOP BALANCE means every single cell is charged to 100% capacity.
    MSEE, PE

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    • #32
      Originally posted by AlOlmstead
      Here is the Amazon product title for the transformers that I am now using:
      LOL. That is not a Transformer. It is Buck Converter and is made for golf carts to CONVERT a 36 or 48 volt golf cart battery to 12 volts for head/brake lights, stereo, and 12 volt gizmos. They are Chi-Com POS converters and they do not last long.

      MSEE, PE

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      • #33
        Originally posted by AlOlmstead
        Forgive me because I have only a 95,000 word vocabulary in English; so I'm understandably short-tempered with semantical nonsense.
        You are the one spouting semantical nonsense which is understandable, you are a mechanic. Look up the definition of a Transformer.

        Transformer: A transformer is a static electrical device that transfers electrical energy between two or more circuits. A varying current in one coil of the transformer produces a varying magnetic flux, which, in turn, induces a varying electromotive force (emf) or voltage across a second coil wound around the same core. Electric power can be transferred between the two coils, without a metallic connection between the two circuits. Faraday's law of induction discovered in 1831 described the induced voltage effect in any secondary coil due to changing magnetic flux cutting it.

        Transformers are used to increase or decrease the alternating voltages (AC Power) in electric power applications.

        DC cannot pass through a Transformer unless there is a Center Tap on both Primary and Secondary coils called SIMPLEX, but the DC voltage does NOT CHANGE. An example is your telephone line. That is why Mike and Steve busted your chops because they and I know there is no such thing as a DC Transformer. They are DC-DC Converters which are electronic. A transformer is a passive device with nothing electronic inside them.

        MSEE, PE

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        • #34
          Originally posted by AlOlmstead
          How long have you been living and working entirely off-grid?).
          Never, I am not that stupid to pay 5 to 10 times more for limited power. Been designing building them for about 15 years, and in power generation for about 40 years. Only thing I have solar powered is my ham radio shack which is all built with manufactures samples they give me because I buy and use so much they give me to try out and work with. Like a drug dealer, I do not care what you do with the product, I just provide a service to make a living. The difference is I give my customers the most bang for the buck, works as expected, and as safe as humanly possible. Using lithium batteries for residential power defeats all those objectives.

          MSEE, PE

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          • #35
            Originally posted by AlOlmstead
            The difference between us is that I sell daily to real people. I have never even one time had a customer ask me fror a "buck converter".
            That is because the public is as ignorant as you are, and as a salesman wil tel the customer what they want to hear like any salesman. Salesman need not apply here, we do not tell folks what they want to hear. No one here is vested in a one solution forum. We give the facts on both sides to educate the public so they can make informed decisions.

            Go over to the Arizona and Wind & Sun Forum where all the snake oil salesman go to peddle their goods and tell people what they want to here. Both moderators and regular users here will tear you apart, especially if you do not know what you are talking about or only a one solution pundit. You know a person who calls themselves a professional and does not know the difference between a Converter and Transformer or the terms used. I am not vested in any solution. If lithium is the best fit for an application, that is what I go with like an EV's, power tools, or mobile application where weight and size justifies the expense and risk. For stationary applications, lithium is not a good option, just hype full of false claims and promises by snake oil salesman peddling their goods on the ignorant public.

            MSEE, PE

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by AlOlmstead
              ... Functionally, there is no material difference between a buck converter and a reducing transformer.....
              Sadly, you are not dealing with John Q. Public. This forum has a large population of engineers, and for engineers, proper nomenclature is critical for communication.

              When you first mentioned DC transformer, I asked you about it, and you posted a link to a amazon P.O.S. I have since discounted all communications with you, as being unteachable. I will push back and not allow you to use fake or erroneous terminology and not be called for it.

              Other educated people also, will not let you mis-inform people here.

              Powerfab top of pole PV mount (2) | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
              || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
              || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

              solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
              gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by AlOlmstead
                (1) that there is no such thing as a solar charge controller that uses the correct charging strategy for lithium ion batteries
                You call yourself a professional but this statement and your claim there is DC Transformer proves you are not a pro, just a shade tree mechanic at best . LFP batteries are direct replacements with Pb batteries which means any solar charge controller will work. In fact Lithium Ion batteries are the easiest and simplest to charge as they only require a stupid simple CC/CV algorithm. Again your terminology is completely wrong. It is not a Strategy, it is called ALGORITHM, not Strategy.




                MSEE, PE

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by AlOlmstead
                  (1) The original poster expressly referenced TESLA systems, which are based upon 18650 lithium ion batteries, thus my correct statement that there is no such thing as a solar charge controller for LI batteries, because there isn't any. Learn to read before attacking what I write. (2) The Internet is full of references to "charging strategies" (e.g., Battery University). It is a military analogy is to strategy and tactic: the strategy is the sequence of events to be implimented and the algorithm is the specific tactic that implements the strategy. Learn to speak the English language correctly before attacking my usage. (3) You are correct about the shade tree part in the sense that electronic engineering did not yet exist when I became design verification engineer for architect John Coleur at MIT. I am 80 years old and worked mainly with hardware engineers writing microcode. (4) All of this is just another exercise in semantics by a second guy who probably does no more actual work than the first guy who tried the same stunt. I will ask you the same question: "How long have you been running your home and business entirely off-grid using first lead-acid and now lithium-ion batteries, as I have been for more than six years?"
                  Some observations:

                  - To write : "there is no such thing as a solar charge controller for Li batteries, because there isn't any" seem a bit of flawed to me by virtue of the circular logic used.

                  - The definitions of the words strategy and tactics may or may not be used in a military context. To say they are strictly military terms and restricting them to that realm is probably anachronistic. Not necessarily incorrect usage, but it seems somewhat narrow to restrict usage for those words in that way. What about sales strategy or design strategy - two uses I've seen.

                  - If, or to the degree one accepts the birth of electronic engineering to be in 1948 when Bardeen, Brattain and Shockley invented the transistor, that would mean you were 10 years old when you became a design verification engineer, probably in MA. I thought child labor laws in MA wouldn't allow that. But, no matter now. I'm surely not surprised that someone with a 95,000 word English vocabulary would be a child prodigy in the field of electronic engineering as you obviously were, but employed ? For wages ?

                  - Battery University looks like a front for peddlers to me. Claims to be free. Well, so is this site and you get what you pay for or less. Or, maybe it's about as much of a university as what McDonalds calls "Hamburger University" to train burger flippers.

                  I thought I saw something from you two posts ago where you expressed some displeasure about how the value of this exchange (thread, or subset posts ?) has degraded beyond any value and you said goodbye. When folks post stuff such as that, I've usually found it to mean they're out of here. Change your mind, or find something of value, or both, or am I under a set of bad information, or something else ? Couldn't find words to adequately express your displeasure without resorting to a thesaurus ?

                  Take what you want of the above. Scrap the rest.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by AlOlmstead
                    (1) The original poster expressly referenced TESLA systems, which are based upon 18650 lithium ion batteries, thus my correct statement that there is no such thing as a solar charge controller for LI batteries,
                    Again you are clearly demonstrating you have no clue what you are talking about. There are a number of charge controllers that can be used on any type of lithium battery. I bet your customers would like to know just how clueless you are and a pretending to be a pro.

                    Here is you a list of charge controllers that can charge any Lithium Ion cell chemistry.

                    Genasun
                    Morningstar
                    Midnite Solar
                    Victron

                    There are many more I will not waste my time listing for you. It is obvious to me you have never worked with any of those manufactures. I base that on the fact the Chi-Com POS DC Converter you linked too you find at AutoZone and low end golf cart shops. That is exactly what a Shade Tree mechanic would use because they do not know better.

                    Any of today's smart battery chargers and solar charge controllers can charge any battery chemistry. It is real simple, they all allow you to program the voltage set points. Now if you use cheap Chi-Com parts from the auto or RV shop, they have fixed output and use a slector switch of Gel, AGM, or FLA. But even those can charge any LFP battery because LFP is compatible with Pb batteries. Now get lost.

                    MSEE, PE

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by AlOlmstead
                      This is meaningless noise. I have work to do.
                      Yea, but I've got more time than money and more money than brains.

                      Looks like you're still here huh ?

                      Meaningless noise ? I make the same questions/comments again in the same sense you asked another (unidentified by you) poster to answer your mostly meaningless, and also rhetorical and self serving question about how long they've been off grid.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

                        Yea, but I've got more time than money and more money than brains.

                        Looks like you're still here huh ?

                        Meaningless noise ? I make the same questions/comments again in the same sense you asked another (unidentified by you) poster to answer your mostly meaningless, and also rhetorical and self serving question about how long they've been off grid.
                        Damn. We chased another one away.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by J.P.M.
                          to the degree one accepts the birth of electronic engineering to be in 1948 when
                          Bardeen, Brattain and Shockley invented the transistor,
                          Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s, with motors, phones, and crude
                          wireless. WWII was fought without transistors. Some of us think the electronic age started with
                          the 1908 invention of the vacuum tube (amplifier), which AT&T developed for coast to coast calls
                          by 1914. Shortly many industries were using the tube.

                          Zero carbon footprint for this house, no batteries, no firewood. How many off griders can say that?
                          Bruce Roe

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bcroe View Post
                            Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s,
                            While this a true a true statement, it is a bit of an understatement to some degree. Example the Telegraph goes back to 1774, not of much use due to very limited range from one room to another. The first working Telegraph of several kilometers was put into service in 1816. By the time of the USA Civil War, the Telegraph was pretty much fully mature and was the Unions secret weapon, that allowed almost real time communications between Central Command , and deployed unit. With the Telegraph and Rail is what gave the Union a huge advantage as observers were able to track Confederate troops movement, report it via Telegraph, and then use trains to position Union troops and supplies where needed to cut off Confederates.

                            MSEE, PE

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by bcroe View Post

                              Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s, with motors, phones, and crude
                              wireless. WWII was fought without transistors. Some of us think the electronic age started with
                              the 1908 invention of the vacuum tube (amplifier), which AT&T developed for coast to coast calls
                              by 1914. Shortly many industries were using the tube.

                              Zero carbon footprint for this house, no batteries, no firewood. How many off griders can say that?
                              Bruce Roe
                              I suppose we could also use Faraday's birth if we wanted to. Or when Thales of Miletus discovered amber rod had peculiar properties of attraction ~ 600 BCE.

                              My criteria for a starting date was no more than a suggestion loosely based on the idea that the term electronic engineering, which I understand to be "small(er)" scale - hence the transistor invention date, vs. electrical engineering which I understand to be more the province of large(r) scale equipment, projects and duties.

                              In any case, I'd suggest that, contrary to AIOImstead's claim to have been working at the start of it, that claim is probably not valid.

                              As for your footprint - and not a knock, but while your carbon footprint may be approaching zero, your array(s') physical footprint may be the only one of a
                              r
                              esidential nature that's visible from outer space.
                              Last edited by J.P.M.; 11-25-2018, 12:12 AM. Reason: Corrected name.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

                                Damn. We chased another one away.
                                FWIW, I'd respectfully suggest that if one goal around here is helping someone improve their thinking and hence their lot, we failed to deliver, at least to AIOImstead. Maybe he is a crackpot and a crank/snakeoil salesperson, but I wish we'd been able to turn him from the darkside. Perhaps other readers can use the info. iJust sayin'.

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