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Lithium-ion multiple batteries on parallel - same challenge as Lead Acid or not?

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  • Lithium-ion multiple batteries on parallel - same challenge as Lead Acid or not?

    I am considering connecting multiple (20-30 or even 40) 24V Lithium-Ion batteries together in a large 24V batteribank. As each module is 24V (58Ah) and as the batteribank is also 24V they all need to be connected in parallel.

    Is the challenges of connecting such a large number of batteries in parallel the same as for lead acid?

    i.e to keep the batteribank healthy they all need to have exactly the same resistance between the collection point for load and charging?

    Achieved this this with his many modules is a nightmare - is it really necessary?

    batt_new_2.gif
    Last edited by Roil; 11-17-2018, 05:28 AM.

  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by nebster View Post
    Davide's written material on the disadvantages of paralleling strings is mostly misinformed or misleading, although its overall suggestion is true: it is often better to parallel first, then place in serial.
    That is is some funny stuff from someone who pretends to know what they are talking about. Try laying off the Ganja there in Colorado.

    Leave a comment:


  • nebster
    replied
    Oh yeah, I have nothing to sell. (Maybe I should!)

    Leave a comment:


  • nebster
    replied
    Davide's written material on the disadvantages of paralleling strings is mostly misinformed or misleading, although its overall suggestion is true: it is often better to parallel first, then place in serial.

    But there are times when it is better (or even necessary) to place multiple serial strings in parallel, and it is perfectly doable. It usually costs more, but it comes with advantages.

    Please be careful heeding Sunking's regurgitated advice in this area. He does not have hands-on experience with the topology. And be skeptical of any material put out by BMS-producing companies. They are often great engineers, but they have to feed their families, and in my experience they are prone to overstating the concerns in their marketing material.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roil
    replied
    Originally posted by Sunking View Post

    Not it is not the same challenge because they are done differently. Pb batteries are paralleled at the String Level and self equalize given enough time when needed, and Li is paralleled at the Cell level and require either Vampire Boards (passive autonomous) used at the DIY level which is pretty much guaranteed to kill your batteries, or Active integrated with the charger.

    Rather than go through every method Davide Andrea a very good friend of mine wrote the book on BMS. He has one of the best websites on the internet.
    Thank you Sunking I have some studying to do

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by Roil View Post
    Been away a few days - 2 pages of off-topic - Can we get back on track?

    "Lithium-ion multiple batteries on parallel - same challenge as Lead Acid or not?
    Sorry about that Roil, got distracted from an advocated/salesman ganja smoking nebster from Colorado, and Calaphonie user trying to figure out how to pay for electricity with other peoples money. Please accept my apology.

    Not it is not the same challenge because they are done differently. Pb batteries are paralleled at the String Level and self equalize given enough time when needed, and Li is paralleled at the Cell level and require either Vampire Boards (passive autonomous) used at the DIY level which is pretty much guaranteed to kill your batteries, or Active integrated with the charger.

    Rather than go through every method Davide Andrea a very good friend of mine wrote the book on BMS. He has one of the best websites on the internet. Considered working for him several years ago, but had no interest in living in Boulder. Check out his site and you can learn everything there is to know about lithium batteries and BMS. Check out the tutorials, white papers and why you parallel at the Cell level and not on the String level. You will also find just about every BMS, Lithium Ion Battery, Battery Pack, and Integrated Circuit made for Li batteries. It will take you a long time to go through it all, but when done you will have a really good idea of what is going on.

    Again my apologies. Davide also makes one good BMS from his own Integrated Circuit design made just for his company BMS product. Another good one for DIY is Orion. Use one of the Selector tools to find a BMS that will work for you. Just remember one thing. A BMS cannot balance an out of Balance Lithium Battery. They can only keep a Balanced pack Balanced with very minor tiny corrections.
    Last edited by Sunking; 11-26-2018, 08:10 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Roil
    replied
    Been away a few days - 2 pages of off-topic - Can we get back on track?

    "Lithium-ion multiple batteries on parallel - same challenge as Lead Acid or not?

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by bcroe View Post
    last I heard. Tubes are still around, there is a 1940 style magnetron in every microwave oven. Bruce Roe
    And they will remain for a long time to come with respect to commercial high power RF Amps. Although today you can buy a 1 Kw Solid State using MRFX1K80H a 1 Kw 1 to 470 Mhz amp. Just finnished building a 2000 watt linear amplifier. Used 48-Volt Telcom Rectifiers as the power supply, and a AGM battery as a buffer. However not easy to work with because you also need to be a plumber because it requires water cooling. Not real efficient as Class AB amplifier go of roughly 40%. FM I can only run at 800 watts, SSB up to 2000 watts. Keeps the birds off the wire antenna though. Now if I can just focus the beam on the ^!@#$& dang monkeys.

    Leave a comment:


  • bcroe
    replied
    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post
    Off topic.
    Bruce. Try to stay warm and safe during the blizzard heading your way.
    Yes, it is just starting here, thanks. But we are used to them, unlike fires, hurricanes, and floods
    hitting so many. This will be a very low production day, I had better read the inverters before they
    get shut down.

    What not many realize, the transistor had advantages over tubes, but it was the integrated circuit
    (1957) that revolutionized electronics. The first ICs at work half a century ago had 4 transistors,
    the one I did a couple decades later had 175,000, and they are at some power of billions last I heard.
    Tubes are still around, there is a 1940 style magnetron in every microwave oven. Bruce Roe

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by bcroe View Post

    Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s, with motors, phones, and crude
    wireless. WWII was fought without transistors. Some of us think the electronic age started with
    the 1908 invention of the vacuum tube (amplifier), which AT&T developed for coast to coast calls
    by 1914. Shortly many industries were using the tube.

    Zero carbon footprint for this house, no batteries, no firewood. How many off griders can say that?
    Bruce Roe
    Off topic.

    Bruce. Try to stay warm and safe during the blizzard heading your way.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by SunEagle View Post

    Damn. We chased another one away.
    FWIW, I'd respectfully suggest that if one goal around here is helping someone improve their thinking and hence their lot, we failed to deliver, at least to AIOImstead. Maybe he is a crackpot and a crank/snakeoil salesperson, but I wish we'd been able to turn him from the darkside. Perhaps other readers can use the info. iJust sayin'.

    Leave a comment:


  • J.P.M.
    replied
    Originally posted by bcroe View Post

    Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s, with motors, phones, and crude
    wireless. WWII was fought without transistors. Some of us think the electronic age started with
    the 1908 invention of the vacuum tube (amplifier), which AT&T developed for coast to coast calls
    by 1914. Shortly many industries were using the tube.

    Zero carbon footprint for this house, no batteries, no firewood. How many off griders can say that?
    Bruce Roe
    I suppose we could also use Faraday's birth if we wanted to. Or when Thales of Miletus discovered amber rod had peculiar properties of attraction ~ 600 BCE.

    My criteria for a starting date was no more than a suggestion loosely based on the idea that the term electronic engineering, which I understand to be "small(er)" scale - hence the transistor invention date, vs. electrical engineering which I understand to be more the province of large(r) scale equipment, projects and duties.

    In any case, I'd suggest that, contrary to AIOImstead's claim to have been working at the start of it, that claim is probably not valid.

    As for your footprint - and not a knock, but while your carbon footprint may be approaching zero, your array(s') physical footprint may be the only one of a
    r
    esidential nature that's visible from outer space.
    Last edited by J.P.M.; 11-25-2018, 12:12 AM. Reason: Corrected name.

    Leave a comment:


  • Sunking
    replied
    Originally posted by bcroe View Post
    Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s,
    While this a true a true statement, it is a bit of an understatement to some degree. Example the Telegraph goes back to 1774, not of much use due to very limited range from one room to another. The first working Telegraph of several kilometers was put into service in 1816. By the time of the USA Civil War, the Telegraph was pretty much fully mature and was the Unions secret weapon, that allowed almost real time communications between Central Command , and deployed unit. With the Telegraph and Rail is what gave the Union a huge advantage as observers were able to track Confederate troops movement, report it via Telegraph, and then use trains to position Union troops and supplies where needed to cut off Confederates.

    Leave a comment:


  • bcroe
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M.
    to the degree one accepts the birth of electronic engineering to be in 1948 when
    Bardeen, Brattain and Shockley invented the transistor,
    Electric signaling and power was well in hand by the late 1800s, with motors, phones, and crude
    wireless. WWII was fought without transistors. Some of us think the electronic age started with
    the 1908 invention of the vacuum tube (amplifier), which AT&T developed for coast to coast calls
    by 1914. Shortly many industries were using the tube.

    Zero carbon footprint for this house, no batteries, no firewood. How many off griders can say that?
    Bruce Roe

    Leave a comment:


  • SunEagle
    replied
    Originally posted by J.P.M. View Post

    Yea, but I've got more time than money and more money than brains.

    Looks like you're still here huh ?

    Meaningless noise ? I make the same questions/comments again in the same sense you asked another (unidentified by you) poster to answer your mostly meaningless, and also rhetorical and self serving question about how long they've been off grid.
    Damn. We chased another one away.

    Leave a comment:

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